HFQ Official Snippet #2

Hm I got that but does this have to mean that the organisation is so old? Couldn't the knowledge sleep like it did with the Brethen but as an example only 200 years?

DrakBibliophile wrote:1) It was mentioned in this snippet that Jeremy Knowles wasn't the only person to leave a record of "what really happened". Thus the person leaving a record lived at about the same time as Jeremy Knowles.

2) It was mentioned in this snippet that this organization is older than the Brethren's secret organization. The Brethren's "secret brotherhood" started about four centuries after Jeremy Knowles's time.

Point.

All we know is that it went "active" before the Brethren did.

Boronian wrote:Hm I got that but does this have to mean that the organisation is so old? Couldn't the knowledge sleep like it did with the Brethen but as an example only 200 years?

DrakBibliophile wrote:1) It was mentioned in this snippet that Jeremy Knowles wasn't the only person to leave a record of "what really happened". Thus the person leaving a record lived at about the same time as Jeremy Knowles.

2) It was mentioned in this snippet that this organization is older than the Brethren's secret organization. The Brethren's "secret brotherhood" started about four centuries after Jeremy Knowles's time.

There is simply too much up for grabs here, given the text evidence that we have so far.

Was Nynian's secret organization founded by one of Shanwei's seedlings? Could be, but doubtful given that we are told that the perspective on those early events is represented as being very different than that of Jeremiah Knowles. One would think that if it was one of seedlings reeducated by Shanwei, the perspective would be at least similar to that of Jeremiah Knowles.

Could Nynian's organization have been founded by an orthodox group disillusioned with the way Langhorne's vision was being implemented? Again doubtful since Merlin represents the writings in the possession of this group as being more or less contemporary with Jeremiah Knowles. One would think that disillusionment would set in with second or third generation after the archangels if that was the case. Besides, do we have any reference to Nynian referring to Langhorne or the archangels in a pious sense rather than just a remark in passing? I am not aware of one.

Could the group have been organized in response to perceived injustice to someone they respected? Given Nynian's remark in snippet 1, Seijin Khody comes to mind here. Also it brings to mind how the divide between Sunni and Shia began with Shia outrage over the murder of Ali, the nephew of the prophet here on earth. This notion does have the advantage of being contemporary with the archangels since seijins were "warriors of mother church" during the war against the fallen.

Sooo... so much to learn! So much for Joat42 and Weird Harold to speculate over so we all avoid exploding heads!

Don

n7axw wrote:
The notion of other PICAs coming on the journey from earth has been ruled out by RFC, IIRC. However that doesn't rule out the possibility that someone manufactured one upon arrival. Owl did it after all.

There is no evidence of which I'm aware to suggest that Seijin Khody is anything other than a flesh and blood human being who probably had at least limited access to TF tech.

Don

There is actually little evidence to point either way - as of yet we do not know how he 'died'.

The other comments about PICA's being customised is very true but then they were also not meant to be operated for more than 10 days.
It would not have been in the Shan-wei & co. best interest if the hack did not work or the PICA stopped after 10 days. Yes someone could have built a PICA but that in itself could have posed problems in that it would have been noticed by Langhorne & crew.
Elias Proctor (bad guy according to CoGA: Demon of forbidden knowledge / temptation) could have put his own personality in to try it out - not saying he did but it does sort of fit. OR
As someone else has suggested they were one of the original group opposed to Langhorne and utilised technology to the hilt; but this would pose other issues.

But then RFC does have a lovely way of throwing us curve balls which is always fun having them revealed.

Remembered reading the FAQ on Nimue's cave and decided to re-reading the stocking of Nimue's cave; as I thought it put paid to my thoughts; oh well back to the drawing board.

evilauthor wrote:

Hildum wrote:Not on Safehold, but it would be a logical form of crime in the Terran Federation, though I suspect it would not have been via SNARC at that time. Probably treated as a form of murder in the criminal statutes.

Not necessarily a SNARC, but a purpose built device the SIZE of a SNARC sounds feasible given Federation tech. How big is a PICA's "brain" again?

But the corollary might also have existed for a short time, where someone voluntarily gave up their body for somebody else. I would expect that that would have been outlawed fairly quickly, and might have influenced the introduction of limits on PICAs later.

Yes, because EVERYONE in the Operation Ark command crew was stickler for Federation Law and would NEVER dream of doing anything illegal, right?

Actually, I think you rather missed my point. I am discussing what could have happened well before Safehold, or even the Gaba encountered the Terran Federation.

Thrandir wrote:

n7axw wrote:
The notion of other PICAs coming on the journey from earth has been ruled out by RFC, IIRC. However that doesn't rule out the possibility that someone manufactured one upon arrival. Owl did it after all.

There is no evidence of which I'm aware to suggest that Seijin Khody is anything other than a flesh and blood human being who probably had at least limited access to TF tech.

Don

There is actually little evidence to point either way - as of yet we do not know how he 'died'.

The other comments about PICA's being customised is very true but then they were also not meant to be operated for more than 10 days.
It would not have been in the Shan-wei & co. best interest if the hack did not work or the PICA stopped after 10 days. Yes someone could have built a PICA but that in itself could have posed problems in that it would have been noticed by Langhorne & crew.
Elias Proctor (bad guy according to CoGA: Demon of forbidden knowledge / temptation) could have put his own personality in to try it out - not saying he did but it does sort of fit. OR
As someone else has suggested they were one of the original group opposed to Langhorne and utilised technology to the hilt; but this would pose other issues.

But then RFC does have a lovely way of throwing us curve balls which is always fun having them revealed.

Remembered reading the FAQ on Nimue's cave and decided to re-reading the stocking of Nimue's cave; as I thought it put paid to my thoughts; oh well back to the drawing board.

As I hear the textev, the only PICA to make the trip was Nimue's. But this does not preclude the making of another one upon arrival on Safehold which could have been done without the 10 day limit.

Don

n7axw wrote:

n7axw wrote:
The notion of other PICAs coming on the journey from earth has been ruled out by RFC, IIRC. However that doesn't rule out the possibility that someone manufactured one upon arrival. Owl did it after all.

There is no evidence of which I'm aware to suggest that Seijin Khody is anything other than a flesh and blood human being who probably had at least limited access to TF tech.

Don

There is actually little evidence to point either way - as of yet we do not know how he 'died'.

The other comments about PICA's being customised is very true but then they were also not meant to be operated for more than 10 days.
It would not have been in the Shan-wei & co. best interest if the hack did not work or the PICA stopped after 10 days. Yes someone could have built a PICA but that in itself could have posed problems in that it would have been noticed by Langhorne & crew.
Elias Proctor (bad guy according to CoGA: Demon of forbidden knowledge / temptation) could have put his own personality in to try it out - not saying he did but it does sort of fit. OR
As someone else has suggested they were one of the original group opposed to Langhorne and utilised technology to the hilt; but this would pose other issues.

But then RFC does have a lovely way of throwing us curve balls which is always fun having them revealed.

Remembered reading the FAQ on Nimue's cave and decided to re-reading the stocking of Nimue's cave; as I thought it put paid to my thoughts; oh well back to the drawing board.

As I hear the textev, the only PICA to make the trip was Nimue's. But this does not preclude the making of another one upon arrival on Safehold which could have been done without the 10 day limit.

Don[/quote]

Not neccessarily 'ruled out'; Langhorne and Bedard were pretty much unconcerned with rules as applied to what they were trying to create; there is NO textev (to the best of my knowledge)that no other PICA's were shipped, Only that the manifests that Kau Yung had access to described listed no item like that. it would be very easy to to 'lose' a small item among the hundreds of thousands of tons of equipment shipped.I was involved in transportation and logistics for quite some time- things can go 'missing' or 'unlisted' if the appropriate incentives are forthcoming.

Not to pop balloons, just have an idea of how that world works.

Definitely ruled out regarding Langhorne and Bedard sneaking in PICAs.

In the thread titled "Langhorne's Big Mistake" David Weber stated that Langhorne (and the original command crew) did not want PICAs.

Quote

Langhorne probably could have requested that a PICA or PICAs be assigned to the command crew. He didn't want one. None of the original command crew — with the exception of the Peis and their small handful of fellow conspirators — wanted PICAs, to be honest.

End Quote

It might still be possible that somebody in the crew but not part of the original command crew did smuggle a PICA to Safehold but Langhorne, by Word of Weber, did not.

Of course, it is remotely possible that somebody figured out how to manufacture a PICA just as OWL did.

By the way, David Weber (in the above mentioned thread) gave us more information about PICAs in general and the planning of Project Ark.

Caliban wrote:Not neccessarily 'ruled out'; Langhorne and Bedard were pretty much unconcerned with rules as applied to what they were trying to create; there is NO textev (to the best of my knowledge)that no other PICA's were shipped, Only that the manifests that Kau Yung had access to described listed no item like that. it would be very easy to to 'lose' a small item among the hundreds of thousands of tons of equipment shipped.I was involved in transportation and logistics for quite some time- things can go 'missing' or 'unlisted' if the appropriate incentives are forthcoming.

Not to pop balloons, just have an idea of how that world works.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Definitely ruled out regarding Langhorne and Bedard sneaking in PICAs.

In the thread titled "Langhorne's Big Mistake" David Weber stated that Langhorne (and the original command crew) did not want PICAs.

Quote

Langhorne probably could have requested that a PICA or PICAs be assigned to the command crew. He didn't want one. None of the original command crew — with the exception of the Peis and their small handful of fellow conspirators — wanted PICAs, to be honest.

End Quote

It might still be possible that somebody in the crew but not part of the original command crew did smuggle a PICA to Safehold but Langhorne, by Word of Weber, did not.

Of course, it is remotely possible that somebody figured out how to manufacture a PICA just as OWL did.

By the way, David Weber (in the above mentioned thread) gave us more information about PICAs in general and the planning of Project Ark.

Caliban wrote:Not neccessarily 'ruled out'; Langhorne and Bedard were pretty much unconcerned with rules as applied to what they were trying to create; there is NO textev (to the best of my knowledge)that no other PICA's were shipped, Only that the manifests that Kau Yung had access to described listed no item like that. it would be very easy to to 'lose' a small item among the hundreds of thousands of tons of equipment shipped.I was involved in transportation and logistics for quite some time- things can go 'missing' or 'unlisted' if the appropriate incentives are forthcoming.

Not to pop balloons, just have an idea of how that world works.

Ahhh, thank you,Sir Dragon- the clarification is truly appreciated. Relatively new to the forums here ( obviously! ) so please excuse the occasional mis-step.

Did not want, does not mean did not allow, or was not there. They may have not wanted them, but carried one anyway if they believed that it was necessary to control safehold in the future.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Definitely ruled out regarding Langhorne and Bedard sneaking in PICAs.

In the thread titled "Langhorne's Big Mistake" David Weber stated that Langhorne (and the original command crew) did not want PICAs.