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Federation Cloning Status

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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by DJMacdonald   » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:02 pm

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DJMacdonald wrote:
A non-emancipated PICA is, by legal definition, not sentient, wiping its memory is equivalent to erasing a thumb drive so you can replace the music files on it.

That PICA personality is a copy of an existing personality, after uploading any differences (i.e. the memories of experiences that the PICA was sent to have), the copy is superfluous, and erasing it is not a crime.


evilauthor wrote:Legal definition != reality.


Legal definition != Wrong either. Nor does it equal Moral or Ethical.

evilauthor wrote:Given that we SEE Nimue's perspective when she first wakes up in a PICA shell (twice!) and are privy to her thoughts, we see that she has all the personality, memories, morals, and breadth and depth of emotion that the original Nimue had. So a PICA personality is most definitely sentient even if it doesn't think of itself as a person its own right with its own self identity, whatever the (long dead) courts say.


I don't hold that opinion. A PICA is a marvelous machine no doubt, but it is not sentient, nor does transcribing a recording of a person's memories into it make it so.

This is a philosophical question that is open to debate -- and you and I stand on opposite sides of the question.

evilauthor wrote:It might be different if say, it was mandatory for a PICA to shut down after 10 days and its memories archived to be reviewed/absorbed by the original human template. Then you could at least say it merged back with the original human. But no, a PICA's memories are completely dumped, tossed out, ERASED when the clock runs out and lost forever.


So legislated for the reason that you mentioned further on.

evilauthor wrote:I'd even go so far that if Archbishop Maikel is right and Merlin has his own soul, then the 10 day limit has essentially been killing the PICA's soul when it dumps a its memories.


Ummm, no. If I don't ascribe to the "a PICA is sentient" camp, I certainly don't ascribe to the "a PICA has a soul" camp.

evilauthor wrote:And the most criminal thing about the whole 10 day limit law? It was made out of fear. It wasn't based on some PICA actually going on a killing spree. It was made on the basis of people being afraid they might. You know, like how a certain Grand Inquisitor was afraid a little podunk island nation MIGHT defy Church authority, or how a certain nation MIGHT decide to openly side with that island nation. Or how three quarters of a certain small village MIGHT have conspired to blow up a transport barge full of gunpowder.


Clyntan <sp> has been described as close to a meglomaniac as makes no difference. I certainly wouldn't want a PICA with those kinds of tendancies either.

So, having a legal limit to unsupervised activity (for non-emancipated PICAs) makes sense to me. Why do we put warning labels on microwave ovens to tell people not to dry small animals in them? Because people might.

evilauthor wrote:And no one thinks this is WRONG? Really???


Really. (Assuming you mean erasing PICAs at the expiration of the 10 day limit.)

evilauthor wrote:Edit: And that doesn't even address hyperheuristic mode. Nimue 3.0 spent the better part of several months subjective time catching up with current events, learning appropriate skills, and having conversations with Nahrmahn and Owl. Note that it's been mentioned that several subjective MONTHS in hyperheuristic mode can take place in the span of 15 minutes for the rest of the universe. And the PICA countdown timer is apparently based on objective time.

So if a PICA isn't sentient when it first wakes up, what about at the end of 10 objective days in hyperheuristic mode and subjectively experienced YEARS of activity and interaction with other people in hyperheuristic mode? If a PICA isn't sentient after that, then neither Merlin nor Nimue 3.0 can be considered sentient NOW.


Nope. Hyperheuristic mode makes no difference. And I don't believe either PICA is sentient.
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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:25 pm

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What do you mean by "sentient"?

Our main character is a PICA and based on his thoughts he's as "sentient" as all the other Safehold characters.

If Merlin isn't "sentient" then nobody in the stories can be said to be "sentient".

The question about having a soul is a completely separate matter as it's a religious opinion which science can't answer.

Now if you believe that humans won't be able to build a "sentient" machine, that's another thing but in the books, Merlin and other PICAs are "sentient" beings.
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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by DJMacdonald   » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:19 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:What do you mean by "sentient"?

<snip the middle>

Now if you believe that humans won't be able to build a "sentient" machine, that's another thing but in the books, Merlin and other PICAs are "sentient" beings.


I'll have to disagree with the resident Dragon as well.

I don't believe that machines can be sentient -- choose any definition from any dictionary of your choice.

The other characters are recognizably homo sapiens so no problem there.

For the two PICAs, OWL, and Nahrman, I just push my "Suspension of Disbelief" button and trudge merrily along.
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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by evilauthor   » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:17 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:What do you mean by "sentient"?

Our main character is a PICA and based on his thoughts he's as "sentient" as all the other Safehold characters.

If Merlin isn't "sentient" then nobody in the stories can be said to be "sentient".

The question about having a soul is a completely separate matter as it's a religious opinion which science can't answer.

Now if you believe that humans won't be able to build a "sentient" machine, that's another thing but in the books, Merlin and other PICAs are "sentient" beings.


Yep. And while I get that there are emancipated PICAs, that the PICA's memories are saved was said nowhere in the text or IIRC in any out-of-story essay written by Weber. Everything I've read said that a PICA's memories are "dumped" at the 10 day limit with no indication of them being saved.

And there's certainly no textev that I remember saying that Nimue absorbed back the memories of her time as a PICA.
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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:30 pm

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I think it was implied.

Why would Nimue (the original) send a copy of herself off on a ski trip if she didn't download to herself the memories of the ski trip afterwards?

Considering the known uses for the type of PICA Nimue (the original) owned, it would be silly for somebody to copy themselves into a PICA, send it off to have fun and NOT downloading the PICA's memories back into themselves.

For that matter, PICA often were used routinely to carry out dangerous tasks. The users of the PICAs would this sort of thing would need to have the experience of carrying out these tasks for the next time they copied themselves into a PICA.

Also PICAs were used by people who were badly crippled (beyond repair by Federations medicine) in order to live full lives. The memories held by those PICAs would be downloaded to the crippled originals.



evilauthor wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:What do you mean by "sentient"?

Our main character is a PICA and based on his thoughts he's as "sentient" as all the other Safehold characters.

If Merlin isn't "sentient" then nobody in the stories can be said to be "sentient".

The question about having a soul is a completely separate matter as it's a religious opinion which science can't answer.

Now if you believe that humans won't be able to build a "sentient" machine, that's another thing but in the books, Merlin and other PICAs are "sentient" beings.


Yep. And while I get that there are emancipated PICAs, that the PICA's memories are saved was said nowhere in the text or IIRC in any out-of-story essay written by Weber. Everything I've read said that a PICA's memories are "dumped" at the 10 day limit with no indication of them being saved.

And there's certainly no textev that I remember saying that Nimue absorbed back the memories of her time as a PICA.
Last edited by DrakBibliophile on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:34 pm

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DJMacdonald, then what are you arguing about? ;)

This discussion is about matters existing in the Safehold story universe not about what is possible now or in the real future. :D


DJMacdonald wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:What do you mean by "sentient"?

<snip the middle>

Now if you believe that humans won't be able to build a "sentient" machine, that's another thing but in the books, Merlin and other PICAs are "sentient" beings.


I'll have to disagree with the resident Dragon as well.

I don't believe that machines can be sentient -- choose any definition from any dictionary of your choice.

The other characters are recognizably homo sapiens so no problem there.

For the two PICAs, OWL, and Nahrman, I just push my "Suspension of Disbelief" button and trudge merrily along.
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Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:49 pm

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Evilauthor, I found the text evidence that you missed. The following quote is from the beginning of OAR when Nimue the PICA has just woke and before we hear the main part of Kau-yung's message.

Quote

That capability had made the remote operation of a PICA possible at last. A last-generation PICA's owner could actually load a complete electronic analogue of his personality and memories (simple data storage had never been a problem, after all) into the PICA in order to take it into potentially dangerous environments outside the direct neural linkage's limited transmission range. The analogue could operate the PICA, without worrying about risk to the owner's physical body, and when the PICA returned, its memories and experiences could be uploaded to the owner as his own memories.

End Quote

evilauthor wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:What do you mean by "sentient"?

Our main character is a PICA and based on his thoughts he's as "sentient" as all the other Safehold characters.

If Merlin isn't "sentient" then nobody in the stories can be said to be "sentient".

The question about having a soul is a completely separate matter as it's a religious opinion which science can't answer.

Now if you believe that humans won't be able to build a "sentient" machine, that's another thing but in the books, Merlin and other PICAs are "sentient" beings.


Yep. And while I get that there are emancipated PICAs, that the PICA's memories are saved was said nowhere in the text or IIRC in any out-of-story essay written by Weber. Everything I've read said that a PICA's memories are "dumped" at the 10 day limit with no indication of them being saved.

And there's certainly no textev that I remember saying that Nimue absorbed back the memories of her time as a PICA.
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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by evilauthor   » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:21 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:Evilauthor, I found the text evidence that you missed. The following quote is from the beginning of OAR when Nimue the PICA has just woke and before we hear the main part of Kau-yung's message.

Quote

That capability had made the remote operation of a PICA possible at last. A last-generation PICA's owner could actually load a complete electronic analogue of his personality and memories (simple data storage had never been a problem, after all) into the PICA in order to take it into potentially dangerous environments outside the direct neural linkage's limited transmission range. The analogue could operate the PICA, without worrying about risk to the owner's physical body, and when the PICA returned, its memories and experiences could be uploaded to the owner as his own memories.

End Quote


Aha, thanks. Wow. I guess I had myself worked up over missing a single line.
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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by CastleTrime   » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:10 am

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Comment in OAR on page 248 Merlin thinks it ironic that the last Christian is a machine since lagally thats all autonomous PICA had ever been and wonders weather or not he had a soul or was just a recording and decided that it didn't matter for his task was to restore humanities past including all humanities striving for divine inspiration. He then hopes humanity ability to believe will not be destroyed by the realisation of the lie.
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Re: Federation Cloning Status
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:37 am

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David Weber and the text evidence have said that non-emancipated PICAs are legally considered machines (not legal persons) so that the owner of the PICA can't claim that he's guilty of a crime that his copied personality committed while in the PICA.

If I decided to murder somebody, I couldn't copy myself into a PICA, have the PICA personality commit the crime and then claim that I (the original) wasn't guilty.

On the other hand, if I emancipated a copy of myself that was in a PICA, that copy was legally a person by Federation Law. The free personality couldn't be erased by me and if it committed a crime years after I freed him I wasn't responsible for the crime.



CastleTrime wrote:Comment in OAR on page 248 Merlin thinks it ironic that the last Christian is a machine since lagally thats all autonomous PICA had ever been and wonders weather or not he had a soul or was just a recording and decided that it didn't matter for his task was to restore humanities past including all humanities striving for divine inspiration. He then hopes humanity ability to believe will not be destroyed by the realisation of the lie.
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