Just when you thougt Islamic Extremists were nice folks?

Pushmar, I'm a left leaning citizen of another developed country who is often puzzled by the US in general and the conservative bible belt US in particular because I just don't understand it. However I don't want to see the US destroyed or damaged in any way.

You are entitled to your values and good luck to you.

Just as you are upset by your perception that "Also, all too often, prime-time TV sitcoms (yuk) and sometimes Cinema portray traditional American values and Christianity in a bad light", others elsewhere are not always happy when those same American values and Christianity are pushed on us as the only correct way.

A great many educated people elsewhere in the world have somewhat different values, and neither they or you own the only true way.

I'm probably not a good individual sample as I'm somewhat biased against Christianity having been blessed with 7 years in a church boarding school. My memory of the "Love thy neighbour" ethos is also bruised by church spokesmen railing against gay and women's rights, hiding of organised paedophilia, and generally disapproving of many things that I believe are quite OK.

As to families being destroyed I spent a great morning today with my son, his wife and two excellent grand daughters. All great people who are full of love, commitment and compassion; yet not a baptism among the lot.

pushmar wrote:

pokermind wrote:Hmm pushmar try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5BtQgTGOI4 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evko5zGeBiM

Poker

namelessfly wrote:Your seemingly normal, peaceful, Muslim neighbors are not so peaceful.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/13/world/mea ... index.html

Yeah, I know. I've been keeping a little bit of an eye (not too much) on the crap w/ ISIL or ISIS or whatever it's being called. If you ask me, they are a bunch of wannabee gangster scumbags, need to be wiped away like ... well, I can't say on this forum.

Okay, how may did we (just the US, no other coalition forces) lose in Iraq? The 2003 war, 4487. The gulf war, 292. Total, 4779. (Hell, we lost over 12,000 in the battle of Okinawa in WWII alone!) The Iraqis? Both wars, 25,000 to maybe 40,000, total. Clearly, they "ain't shit" as my brother would say, as far as a fighting force.

[rant]
This situation frustrates me. Nansy-Pansy politicians worried about public opinion, perhaps, or towing the party line, they won't or don't seem to be worried, from what I can tell. America is THE superpower, and so what? Why play around? We could fix this nonsense easily if someone in office had any backbone, integrity and actually loved this country.

As far as Shari'ah law in this country - If any politician looks like caving in to religious extremism - I hope his constituents take him to task - quickly and seriously. If Americans are too dumb to realize what THAT would be like, then the truth is not being told to them, and/or they are letting themselves be (or are being) distracted by peripheral things.

Media bias also sickens me. Consider that they want to tell Americans what to think - to what political end game? Ruin, AFAIAC. Also, all too often, prime-time TV sitcoms (yuk) and sometimes Cinema portray traditional American values and Christianity in a bad light. Is there an effort to destroy the family, I sometimes wonder?
[\rant]

Sometimes, I wonder who, and if, is really is trying to destroy America.

pushmar wrote:As far as Shari'ah law in this country - If any politician looks like caving in to religious extremism - I hope his constituents take him to task - quickly and seriously. If Americans are too dumb to realize what THAT would be like, then the truth is not being told to them, and/or they are letting themselves be (or are being) distracted by peripheral things.

Religious extremism is apparently tolerated when the religion is christian.

pushmar wrote:America is THE superpower

unfortunately, wrong tense. Was is the correct one now.

Media bias also sickens me. Consider that they want to tell Americans what to think - to what political end game? Ruin, AFAIAC. Also, all too often, prime-time TV sitcoms (yuk) and sometimes Cinema portray traditional American values and Christianity in a bad light. Is there an effort to destroy the family, I sometimes wonder?
[\rant]

I would note that these values you care about aren't really christian. at best you could claim to narrow it down to Abrahamic, but that still includes islam and Judaism, as surprise surprise, three religions based off of the same god and ideals tend to have the same basic tenets. And really, these values aren't even religious values. What are considered proper values currently are at minimum secular, as they cover all religions, and at a more probable level, animal kingdom wide, as we have evidence of animals punishing those that have society disrupting behaviours.

But you have nothing to worry about from sharia law. Not when the more fundamentalist christians are currently doing so well. They won't let go in a hurry.

Sometimes, I wonder who, and if, is really is trying to destroy America.[/quote]

Daryl: I understand, and I also don't like pushy Christians, even though I am one. (A Christian, I mean; not pushy.) Sorry about your boarding school experience.

I've also seen "Christians" doing more harm than good, like you, and it disappoints me. The best way to show is by example, which all too often is a poor one. So I think I know where you're coming from.

Spacekiwi: As far as America being THE world power: Okay, maybe not, but I think we still have the strongest, most effective military. Probably.

Now, as far as the values are concerned: I think there are points I would disagree with you about. Abrahamic at the root, yes. But Christianity (and I think Judaism) will tolerate other belief systems more or less. There is no equivalent of a scripture-sanctioned holy war and convert-or-die thing. Okay, some questionable parallels, maybe in the old testament, but I think that had specific application for just back then. My own personal belief is that if God wants something, He's gonna do it Himself, and He doesn't need His followers killing in His name. People are impatient.

Also, yes, the basic values are secular, shared by other cultures as well. Isn't that nice? But basic human decency precludes killing people, let alone children, regardless of their, or probably more properly, their parent's beliefs, as ISIS is reported to be doing in Iraq/Syria.

I know I have conflicting thoughts, and I have no answers.

So there it is, for what my opinion is worth.

Hurray for Australia and PM Tony Abbot for offering asylum.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/n ... 85d6b1a202

I don't favor US intervention to fix the mess that President Obama has created but I certainly would not oppose allowing 40,000 Yasidi refugees to immigrate to the US to escape Obama's jihadists.

The military power of the US certainly has dwindled under President Obama. That is an inevitable result of his efforts to transform America into a European style, socialist nanny state. While I don't see any other world power that can equal the US, the US no longer has the capability to project power that it once had. The fact that the US has few options to intervene to protect the Yasidis who are threatened with extermination is an inevitable consequence of that diminished power. However; what is being done to the Yasidi by ISIS is no worse than what was done to the Kurds and the Shiit by Saddam Hussien. In fact the fatalities will be trivial by Saddam's standards. Since intervening to overthrow that genocidal, WMD covetous tyrant is now condemned because "Bush Lied, People Died," I see no reason why the US should intervene to stop ISIS.

Perhaps Europeans should consider the implications of this new reality before they gloat about it? The US no longer has the power projection capability to intervene in Ukraine if Putin invades. The US no longer has the power to intervene if Putin decides to invade Poland, Germany, France or Great Britain.

To paraphrase a few Presidents:
the US should not go forth looking for dragons to slay. America should be a friend of liberty everywhere but a defender of none but it's own. Let the word go forth that there is a new nation that will pay NO price, bear NO burden to oppose tyranny that does not directly threaten it.

I suspect that America's former allies have nothing to fear from a direct invasion by ISIS or Russia. Their greatest threat is the flood of Muslim immigrants from Africa and Asia. The protests against Israel's intervention in Gaza demonstrate how the changing demographics of Europe have already changed European society. As the Muslim minority becomes larger, the native European majority will surrender to Sharia law with barely a whimper of protest. Hopefully; the Islamicradicals will kill enough native Europeans to destroy the economic capacity that could enable the Caliphate to build a military that can threaten the US. When that day comes, I want Russia, India and China to be strong so that they can be America's new allies.

Spacekiwi wrote:

pushmar wrote:America is THE superpower

unfortunately, wrong tense. Was is the correct one now.

Media bias also sickens me. Consider that they want to tell Americans what to think - to what political end game? Ruin, AFAIAC. Also, all too often, prime-time TV sitcoms (yuk) and sometimes Cinema portray traditional American values and Christianity in a bad light. Is there an effort to destroy the family, I sometimes wonder?
[\rant]

I would note that these values you care about aren't really christian. at best you could claim to narrow it down to Abrahamic, but that still includes islam and Judaism, as surprise surprise, three religions based off of the same god and ideals tend to have the same basic tenets. And really, these values aren't even religious values. What are considered proper values currently are at minimum secular, as they cover all religions, and at a more probable level, animal kingdom wide, as we have evidence of animals punishing those that have society disrupting behaviours.

But you have nothing to worry about from sharia law. Not when the more fundamentalist christians are currently doing so well. They won't let go in a hurry.

Sometimes, I wonder who, and if, is really is trying to destroy America.

[/quote]

pushmar wrote:Spacekiwi: As far as America being THE world power: Okay, maybe not, but I think we still have the strongest, most effective military. Probably.

Yeah, I would say that you have the currently strongest military, but I'm not so sure about effectiveness. Your special forces are no doubt good, but your normal military doesn't seem to be from the outside. The biggest part of your strength at the moment seems to be exactly what the soviets had: quantity. No other country in the world has as much money or soldiers that they can just throw at something until it works. This may or may not be a good or bad thing, but its just a reality. ANd with the increase in spending by china, and the buildup again by russia, I suspect in a decade or two that you will be competing for first amongst equals, as china can throw a smaller percentage at their military, and end up with a larger amount give, in money and manpower.


However, I would also point out that those who are doing this are being disowned by everyone else who they havent brainwashed.
I suppose it goes round in a way. Muslims this time, christians next time, repeat as infinitum.

Also, yes, the basic values are secular, shared by other cultures as well. Isn't that nice? But basic human decency precludes killing people, let alone children, regardless of their, or probably more properly, their parent's beliefs, as ISIS is reported to be doing in Iraq/Syria.

I know I have conflicting thoughts, and I have no answers.

So there it is, for what my opinion is worth.

[/quote]

My theory is that Islam is about the same age as Christianity was at the time of the inquisition and witch burning, so perhaps in another 400 years they will have settled down.
We shouldn't forget that it isn't all that many centuries since London had public executions with beheadings plus hang drawn and quartered, and people used to bring their whole family (including young kids) with a picnic to watch the show.

Regarding the whole superpower debate, several countries have sufficient nuclear arsenals to take us back to the stone age, but in terms of projected power short of that the USA is still the clear leader. I however agree with several of the right wing commentators here though, that America shouldn't be expected to shoulder the burden paying out in soldier's lives and resources (treasure - funny way of looking at it).
I disagree though with the assertion that Islam overall automatically is a bogy man, or that Europe shouldn't remain united and get stronger. A newer world order may end up with USA, Europe, China and India all of similar capabilities and hopefully mature about it. The European situation where internal war is unlikely as everyone has investments and business interests across the continent, may well develop internationally.
Unlikely to go to war if you will be bombing your own factories or holiday homes.

Regarding values I hope that there are enough similarities between creeds for us to all get on, while agreeing to obliterate the fringe nutters like ISIS.

Spacekiwi wrote:

pushmar wrote:Spacekiwi: As far as America being THE world power: Okay, maybe not, but I think we still have the strongest, most effective military. Probably.

Yeah, I would say that you have the currently strongest military, but I'm not so sure about effectiveness. Your special forces are no doubt good, but your normal military doesn't seem to be from the outside. The biggest part of your strength at the moment seems to be exactly what the soviets had: quantity. No other country in the world has as much money or soldiers that they can just throw at something until it works. This may or may not be a good or bad thing, but its just a reality. ANd with the increase in spending by china, and the buildup again by russia, I suspect in a decade or two that you will be competing for first amongst equals, as china can throw a smaller percentage at their military, and end up with a larger amount give, in money and manpower.


However, I would also point out that those who are doing this are being disowned by everyone else who they havent brainwashed.
I suppose it goes round in a way. Muslims this time, christians next time, repeat as infinitum.

Also, yes, the basic values are secular, shared by other cultures as well. Isn't that nice? But basic human decency precludes killing people, let alone children, regardless of their, or probably more properly, their parent's beliefs, as ISIS is reported to be doing in Iraq/Syria.

I know I have conflicting thoughts, and I have no answers.

So there it is, for what my opinion is worth.

[/quote]

I would agree with this as well. Wasnt the spanish inquisiton around the 16th to 17th centuries after all?

Daryl wrote:My theory is that Islam is about the same age as Christianity was at the time of the inquisition and witch burning, so perhaps in another 400 years they will have settled down.
We shouldn't forget that it isn't all that many centuries since London had public executions with beheadings plus hang drawn and quartered, and people used to bring their whole family (including young kids) with a picnic to watch the show.

Regarding the whole superpower debate, several countries have sufficient nuclear arsenals to take us back to the stone age, but in terms of projected power short of that the USA is still the clear leader. I however agree with several of the right wing commentators here though, that America shouldn't be expected to shoulder the burden paying out in soldier's lives and resources (treasure - funny way of looking at it).
I disagree though with the assertion that Islam overall automatically is a bogy man, or that Europe shouldn't remain united and get stronger. A newer world order may end up with USA, Europe, China and India all of similar capabilities and hopefully mature about it. The European situation where internal war is unlikely as everyone has investments and business interests across the continent, may well develop internationally.
Unlikely to go to war if you will be bombing your own factories or holiday homes.

Regarding values I hope that there are enough similarities between creeds for us to all get on, while agreeing to obliterate the fringe nutters like ISIS.

After nearly 500 years of Moorish often brutal occupation Spain drove the last of the Moorish sultans out in the IIRC 1480s, taking a page from the Moors' Islamic repression of religions other than Islam they instituted the Spanish Inquisition to make sure the forcefully converted Jews and Muslims were actually Christians, and not practicing their former religion. Islam's convert or die philosophy is 1,300 years old, since it's foundation around 750 AD.

Poker