Machine guns

Hello all, got a quick question. This may have been covered already and if so I apologies, I'm rather new to this forum but I do love me some David Weber so thought it was time to join. My question is... Is there a Technological reason for there to be no Machine guns on Safehold or is it just that no one has had the idea? Im not a huge history buff but I know enough to be dangerous and I am putting the current tech level of Charis at least somewhere between the american civil war and ww1, and the first machine gun came out right around the american civil war. It wasnt the prettiest weapon to ever see the light of day, but surely the dragoons could use something like that in keeping the AoG heads down. Thanks for the answers in advance

cdieter,
Machine guns are coming. RFC is skipping early stage (non-cartridge) machine guns and going straight towards the Maxim or Browning M2 -style. The key developments are metallic cartridges. All the pieces are in place, but the limits of Charis' industrial plant are the current limitations.
With Safehold's very high (relative) pump, seal, and hydraulic knowledge it won't take long at all for a non-circle member to look at the artillery recovery system and consider an auto-loading/breech system on a smaller scale. The feedback loop is the key - capturing the recoil and then using that energy.
They've already gotten to magazine-fed bolt action rifles from matchlocks. Just give them a little time to think and breathe.

Just my 2 bits,
Dave

Lazalarlives wrote:Machine guns are coming. RFC is skipping early stage (non-cartridge) machine guns and going straight towards the Maxim or Browning M2 -style. The key developments are metallic cartridges. All the pieces are in place, but the limits of Charis' industrial plant are the current limitations.

I suspect RunsForCelery (aka David Weber) is going to bypass heavy, crew served machine guns as well. An assault rifle like the AK47 or a submachine gun like the Thompson or various stamped metal WWII vintage weapons, would suit the tactics and strategy of the ICA better than Maxim or Browning style crew served weapons. I also think that belt-fed Machine guns are probably technically more difficult to design and manufacture than magazine fed submachines or assault rifles.

PS: Here's a previous discussion on the subject

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5927

Trying to out guess RFC is always a problem, if the bolt action cartridge is black powder any MG will probably be a hand cranked type either Gatling or The Gardner. If the pistol cartridge in brown powder then and only then are the sub-machine guns practical.

Lets see we have units with flintlock and caplock muzzleloaders using a paper cartridge of various calibers, Mandraines with cardboard cartridges, and the new metallic cartridges, rifle and pistol. What a hell of a mess for supply! There is a great chance that units will get the WRONG ammunition, perhaps supplied flints when they need caps or vice-versa. This happened during the Civil War effectively taking units out of the fight for want of the proper ammunition. I can see RFC using this scenario sometime. Note Artillery Ammo is just as diverse, and adding metallic cartridge artillery will just increase the chances of supply foul ups!

Poker

Harold,
I know RFC is moving to an assault rifle, but a M279 SAW is actually a lot more complex and harder to make work than the venerable M2. It was even worse than the (admittedly balky) M60 in my opinion. I've fired and maintained all of them - and the M2 was easier to deal with than the M16, M4, and even the half-dozen AKM and M14's we had at the OPFOR unit.
Old Ma Deuce is a mechanical marvel - simple, robust, and surprisingly soldier-proof. There's a reason the Army still uses essentially the same weapon system over eighty years after it was introduced (The main change? Plastic handles so chemical decontamination is easier!) The design would even be able to handle the lower-velocity black powder based rounds (just adjust the mechanism per the cold weather mods for -25 or lower based on slower, cold-influenced burn rates).
The Maxim is an option because of the early, canvas-loop ammuntion feed. I'd bet that steel thistle silk would work even better.
Anyhow, crew served weapons are a key part of dispersed tactics, especially when the other side starts using them. You need them for suppression and as the main man-killers. Individual rifles are just not able to suppress large numbers of dispersed enemy riflemen. When/if someone matches Charis' tactics, they're going to need the machine gun, those light mortars, and probably rifle grenades.
It all goes together, the infantry rifle is just the first (and admittedly most important) cog.

Just my two bits,
Dave

BTW - Just so it's on record, I'm a retired Army intel guy who worked mostly in light infantry support and HUMINT ops.

Lazalarlives wrote:I know RFC is moving to an assault rifle, but a M279 SAW is actually a lot more complex and harder to make work than the venerable M2.[/quote


You may not have noticed because I didn't explicitly exclude them in the thread, although I did in the older thread, but I do NOT expect Charis to attempt the close tolerances of any of the AR family, and especially don't expect them to got to a small caliber like the 5.56 Nato. Charis doesn't have the powder technology to support anything in the AR family -- yet.

If Merlin or OWL provides specs on any automatic weapon, I would expect an AK47 derivative because that automatic rifle is within Charis' manufacturing capability already, can use the magazine technology already developed for the bolt actions. The looser tolerances make the AK less susceptible to dirt and powder fouling.

WWII fielded several stamped metal submachineguns that functioned with looser tolereances than AR derivatives too.

The Thompson SMG may or may not be beyond Charis' technology, but it won't be long before they could make one.

Charis could probably make a Maxim or M2, or any of several WWI crew-served machine guns. I just don't expect them to do so. I don't really expect to see automatic weapons in the ICA until after the current war ends.

I don't expect the CoGA to develop heavy machine guns, either -- at least not within the span of the current war. The CoGA is mostly in a reactive, copy-cat mode of innovation at the moment. As things stand, the CoGA won't field automatic weapons until Charis or Siddarmark do.

FWIW, the Charisian Navy might adopt something like the M2 but more likely something larger -- 40MM Bofors or equivalent, because they work at longer range against better armor. But whatever the Navy comes up with will be too big for army use.

Lazalarlives wrote:BTW - Just so it's on record, I'm a retired Army intel guy who worked mostly in light infantry support and HUMINT ops.

I'm a Retired USAF MSgt, since Dec 1989.

One of the main goals of Merlin's plan has always been to get people to think and innovate without his or Owl's prompting. That's what happened with the self contained cartridge.

That being said, I kind of hope that he saves full auto for after they finish developing smokeless powder. You can do it with black but the gun's going to need to be taken out of service for cleaning more often and the size of the rounds being used at the moment would necessitate a rather large gun- large enough that it wouldn't be easily portable. Something small enough to be of tactical use for the infantry in a small unit engagement would be more beneficial- in my mind- than a large crew served gun that is so ponderous that it has to be treated like an artillery piece- like the Gatling was treated during its' service life.

I can see RFC writing a scene where someone not in the Circle has a Eureka moment similar to the one John Moses Browning had.

JMB was also a competitive shooter. He was at a long range rifle shoot and John noticed the grass moving every time a shot was fired. That got the wheels turning inside Browning's very fertile mind. Once things started falling into place, John went over to his brother Ed- who was his stock maker, partner and sounding board- and one his employees that was at the match with them and said, "Let's go, I have an idea", and they went directly back to his shop. That led to a series of experimental guns. The first being a Winchester '73 (not a Browning design but it was what they had handy in the shop at that moment) that had been modified so that the bullet left the muzzle and passed through a hole in a plate. The muzzle blast moved the plate which, through a series of rods, worked the lever of the action to load the next round. The series of experiments ultimately led to his gas recoil operating system.

The Charisan advantage in volume of fire has been as big a force multiplier as their ability to stretch their engagement range. A dependable man portable machine gun (optimally something that called for a gunner and a couple assistant gunner/ammo bearers) would be an asset to their infantry doctrine.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be belt fed. Don't forget that the Hotchkiss designs were fed by trays or strippers. With a little guidance from OWL, a hybrid design that uses the Hotchkiss feeding merged with a more reliable action (and that skips the need to oil each round prior to it being chambered) isn't out of the realm of possibility. That's an option as well as something more along the lines of the Lewis, Bren, BAR and (a favorite of mine just because it's so different) the Johnson which were all magazine fed.

Harold,
I agree with you that the AK deriviatives would be a good thing in the moderate run; the AKM's I've used in the past were all excellent weapons if treated right. That system's bad rep for accuracy generally comes from the loose nut behind the stock.
We might see SMG fairly soon; the old M3 grease gun had more in common with water pumps (and the associated tolerances) than it did with the Maxim when you look at it close. The only issue that Merlin/Owl might have with it is that SMG are typically urban fighting weapons and very well suited to insurgencies and terror ops. They're not very good as field weapons. Like naval mines, an SMG is of more benefit to the COGA than to the EOC. My lingering impressions are strongly influenced by Russian Kommissars and other types of 'loyalty' officers and troops.
We will probably see a naval machine gun or light repeater similar to the Bofors when they go to rifled guns for the big ships. Grape and other shotgun-style loads tend to muck up the rifling and just aren't efficient when using modern 155mm+ muzzle velocities at short ranges (the projectiles don't spread enough for effective anti-infantry use at under 200 meters).
Like you, I don't expect heavy machine guns very soon; I'd almost expect a .25 or .30 caliber on the Browning (M2) pattern, though, chambered for whatever smokeless powder caliber they choose and using re-fillable 100 round canvas/steel thistle silk belts.

It's always good to run into other vets. I just retired in 2013 - a back injury put me on my way.

As always, this is just my two bits.
Dave

If I were to put in a machinegun for consideration, I'd look at manufacturing capabilities and the sort of warfare that the ICA is practicing. The output would be something like the German MG-42 of WWII fame.

The gun was built out of stampings, so could be built quickly and cheaply. The form factor (shape, size and weight) makes it quite handy for dismounted infantry tactics, and it is versatile enough to be used as a support weapon or a coaxial gun on an AFV (once Safehold gets around to making AFV's). The only downside is the high cyclic rate (12-1500 RPM), which has some tactical advantages but is a huge pain logistically (you burn through ammunition and barrels at twice the speed of conventional Browning or MAG type weapons that fire at 600 RPM). Clever engineering could set the cyclic rate to whatever was considered optimum, though.

Since it is a roller delayed blowback design, there would have to be a bit of prompting to get the "Ahah" moment (Blowback is simple enough to figure out, but using rollers or levers to provide mechanical advantage to delay the blowback movement is not), so I am not holding my breath waiting for the Harchongese to charge into the high pitched rasp of ICA "Spandaus" (the common term used by Commonwealth soldiers to refer to the MG42).

Lazalarlives wrote:We might see SMG fairly soon; the old M3 grease gun had more in common with water pumps (and the associated tolerances) than it did with the Maxim when you look at it close. The only issue that Merlin/Owl might have with it is that SMG are typically urban fighting weapons and very well suited to insurgencies and terror ops. They're not very good as field weapons. Like naval mines, an SMG is of more benefit to the COGA than to the EOC. My lingering impressions are strongly influenced by Russian Kommissars and other types of 'loyalty' officers and troops.

Wiki agree with my memory of Russian WWII history:

The PPSh was a magazine-fed selective fire submachine gun using an open-bolt, blowback action. Made largely of stamped steel, it could be loaded with either a box or drum magazine, and fired the 7.62×25mm Tokarev pistol round.

The PPSh saw extensive combat use during World War II and the Korean War. It was one of the major infantry weapons of the Soviet armed forces during World War II. Around 6 million PPSh-41s were manufactured. In the form of the Chinese Type 50 (a licensed copy), it was still being used by Vietnamese Viet Cong as late as 1970. According to the 2002 edition of The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II the PPSh was still in use with irregular military forces.[6]

Granted, the Army of God and Harchongese peasants are more likely to use "Human Wave" attacks, but SMGs work well as field guns. Assault Rifles are a bit better in the field because they have a slightly longer range than pistol ammo, but one of the reasons for going to a lighter, shorter range for assault rifles is that the long range of a Battle Rifle (like the Garand or Mosi Nagant) isn't needed for the ranges soldiers normally engage the enemy -- seldom over 150-200 Yds, IIRC.

Like you, I don't expect heavy machine guns very soon; I'd almost expect a .25 or .30 caliber on the Browning (M2) pattern, though, chambered for whatever smokeless powder caliber they choose and using re-fillable 100 round canvas/steel thistle silk belts.

I'd expect a bit larger bullet -- .32 to .45 -- using box or drum magazines. Something similar to the BAR, for situations requiring more range or terminal ballistics than AK or SMG standard issue.

In part, it will depend on how much emphasis the ICA puts on marksmanship. The Russians used so many SMGs because they didn't emphasize marksmanship -- especially long range marksmanship -- but did emphasize weight of fire.