Darth Vader and Slavery vrs. Clones

First, an admission:
Yes, I know some people will think this belongs in the "Free Range Topics..." section. If Duckk feels so strongly about this, he can move it. However, I posted it here intentionally because I would like to hear the reactions to people who have been reading about how the Honorverse deals with cloning and slavery.

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I've recently been listening to Al Yankovic's song "The Saga Begins"
* http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/weirdaly ... egins.html
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEcjgJS ... R4IHbQbI7Q

As result of repeating "ear-worm" re-listenings, I've only just formed a thought that I'd like to hear your reactions to. {Why it took me so long to think of it seems like a Homer Simpson "Doh!" moment.}

The kid and young adult of Anakin Skywalker had dealt with the issue of Slavery. Both his own, and that of his mother's. He also made some sort of a comment of how he would like to eliminate all forms of slavery everywhere in the galaxy. This in turn turns out to be one of the many reasons (or levers) that the (eventual) Emperor uses to turn Anakin to the Dark Side...

And yet, for much of Episode 2, the entirety of Episode 3, and (likely for) all the "off screen" time between 3 & 4...

There is an extensive use of Clones as Soldiers/Stormtroopers.

Aren't they, for all practical purposes... SLAVES?
Yea, I know, they've been "conditioned" to fulfill that role. Oh, wait, where did I hear that plot line before? Hmmmm....

I admit that I am _NO_ trivia guru in regards to the Star Wars universe. Even so, it seems to me that there should have been _SOME_ adverse reaction by Anakin to using Slaves in the interest of freeing... Slaves.

{Yea, yea, I know, we've NEVER heard of Hollywood having Plot Holes before, have we?}


Anyway, I just wanted to put the idea out there to hear people's reactions.

Maybe there's some plot line I don't know about.
I dunno, I just want to see what it is that I don't get...


.

1: My guess is Anakin didn't consider the clones slaves, and from what we see most of, though not all of the clones saw themselves as soldiers rather then slaves.

2: Anakin's hatred of slavery was one of the parts of his personality wiped when he became Vader.

3: At some point between episodes III and IV the Empire stopped using clones as stormtroopers and started using volunteers and maybe conscripts.

The whole question of "slavery" gets muddled when you allow the definition to slip and slide around, especially when a lot of the "slip and slide" is due to socio-political-religious beliefs.

Just to simplify the discussion: there's a difference between de-jure and de-facto slavery (that is, between legal and imposed by circumstances). For example, are professional athletes slaves? their contracts seem to be bought and sold between teams. They can't just walk out of one team and join another if the owner waves more money under their nose. What about the "Natasha" trade, where young women pay good money for promises to be smuggled into the US (or other countries) and when they get here they are coerced into a life as sex workers because their documentation is confiscated and they're promised that if they rebel they'll be turned over to the INS. Or that older practice of company towns and the "company store" that gave rise to the song whose refrain goes: "another day older and deeper in dept" and "I owe my soul to the company store."

JohnRoth wrote:The whole question of "slavery" gets muddled when you allow the definition to slip and slide around, especially when a lot of the "slip and slide" is due to socio-political-religious beliefs.

Just to simplify the discussion: there's a difference between de-jure and de-facto slavery (that is, between legal and imposed by circumstances). For example, are professional athletes slaves? their contracts seem to be bought and sold between teams. They can't just walk out of one team and join another if the owner waves more money under their nose. What about the "Natasha" trade, where young women pay good money for promises to be smuggled into the US (or other countries) and when they get here they are coerced into a life as sex workers because their documentation is confiscated and they're promised that if they rebel they'll be turned over to the INS. Or that older practice of company towns and the "company store" that gave rise to the song whose refrain goes: "another day older and deeper in dept" and "I owe my soul to the company store."

Yeah it's insane what companies have been able to get away with through out history. I know of at least one case where a company created a force of improvised bombers to use against a worker uprising and rather then squash them the US government threatened to send the US Army Air Corp against the workers.

JohnRoth wrote:. Or that older practice of company towns and the "company store" that gave rise to the song whose refrain goes: "another day older and deeper in dept" and "I owe my soul to the company store."

Isnt the company store routine in many of the smaller towns here in america where the best work in town is the large company that owns most of the property? Especially in the oil towns scattered around the states. this i speak with experience on since i was in a oil town for a long while both before and after a work injury that crippled me.

The song referenced is Tennessee Ford: Sixteen Tons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0

But it is essentially how the small towns all across the US were run in the 1800's and for a portion of the 1900's. Companies hired people to work for them, providing housing, tools and equipment. However the company paid in their own script, and the employees had to pay for everything they used. Tools, housing, etc. So while you got paid fifty cents a day, rental of your tools cost you the majority of the pay.

Most people ran an account at the company store, the only store in town and the only place to use the company script that employees were paid in. Typically they had a line of credit that was run up when they joined, like a loan. The employees then spent decades trying to pay that loan away.

The poor stayed poor, and the rich just got richer.

Fireflair wrote:The song referenced is Tennessee Ford: Sixteen Tons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0

But it is essentially how the small towns all across the US were run in the 1800's and for a portion of the 1900's. Companies hired people to work for them, providing housing, tools and equipment. However the company paid in their own script, and the employees had to pay for everything they used. Tools, housing, etc. So while you got paid fifty cents a day, rental of your tools cost you the majority of the pay.

Most people ran an account at the company store, the only store in town and the only place to use the company script that employees were paid in. Typically they had a line of credit that was run up when they joined, like a loan. The employees then spent decades trying to pay that loan away.

The poor stayed poor, and the rich just got richer.

A good example to read would be October Sky. The movie of the same name was inspired by the novel (original name: Rocket Boys - October Sky was a very well-done anagram of the original title). It's the true story of Homer Hickam, who grew up in the coal-mining town of Coalwood, West Virginia, and while in high school, witnessed Sputnik fly over, which inspired him to build rockets, and later end up working for NASA.

There's a *lot* of good info on company stores, company towns, company houses, and so on in the book, and basically how the comapny "owned" you and everything else in the town.

Ensign Re-read wrote:I admit that I am _NO_ trivia guru in regards to the Star Wars universe. Even so, it seems to me that there should have been _SOME_ adverse reaction by Anakin to using Slaves in the interest of freeing... Slaves.

{Yea, yea, I know, we've NEVER heard of Hollywood having Plot Holes before, have we?}

I would suggest that this potentially obvious plothole is another instance of why it´s really sad that G Lucas wife at the time of the original movies didn´t get to do her "thing" on the later movies as well.

That was one of the thing that the Star Wars: Republic Commando book series by Karen Traviss explored.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Republic_Commando_series

Ensign Re-read wrote:First, an admission:
Yes, I know some people will think this belongs in the "Free Range Topics..." section. If Duckk feels so strongly about this, he can move it. However, I posted it here intentionally because I would like to hear the reactions to people who have been reading about how the Honorverse deals with cloning and slavery.

=====

I've recently been listening to Al Yankovic's song "The Saga Begins"
* http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/weirdaly ... egins.html
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEcjgJS ... R4IHbQbI7Q

As result of repeating "ear-worm" re-listenings, I've only just formed a thought that I'd like to hear your reactions to. {Why it took me so long to think of it seems like a Homer Simpson "Doh!" moment.}

The kid and young adult of Anakin Skywalker had dealt with the issue of Slavery. Both his own, and that of his mother's. He also made some sort of a comment of how he would like to eliminate all forms of slavery everywhere in the galaxy. This in turn turns out to be one of the many reasons (or levers) that the (eventual) Emperor uses to turn Anakin to the Dark Side...

And yet, for much of Episode 2, the entirety of Episode 3, and (likely for) all the "off screen" time between 3 & 4...

There is an extensive use of Clones as Soldiers/Stormtroopers.

Aren't they, for all practical purposes... SLAVES?
Yea, I know, they've been "conditioned" to fulfill that role. Oh, wait, where did I hear that plot line before? Hmmmm....

I admit that I am _NO_ trivia guru in regards to the Star Wars universe. Even so, it seems to me that there should have been _SOME_ adverse reaction by Anakin to using Slaves in the interest of freeing... Slaves.

{Yea, yea, I know, we've NEVER heard of Hollywood having Plot Holes before, have we?}


Anyway, I just wanted to put the idea out there to hear people's reactions.

Maybe there's some plot line I don't know about.
I dunno, I just want to see what it is that I don't get...


.

Company towns exist country / world wide at some Japanese companies. Fujitsu for example has company towns, houses, hotels, vacations, bars, pubs, restaurants...etc. Even Universities for you and your kids.

Have you ever met anyone who previously worked for Fujitsu Japan?

The worker in Japan is directed what to wear, how to cut ones hair, where to live, what to drive or what train to take to work or home, some owned by the companies. Company doctors, company just about everything. Even company night clubs and extra curricular activies, company escorts etc....

Some even help pick out suitable families.

In england even in the 70's people / workers were told what their suits could be and what kind of hat they could wear. As an employee you could not wear a bowler or a fedora unless you were of suitable standing / class / education or rank.

Heck when I was in England in the 90's some people were not suitable in standing to be allowed to have a bank account. We had a cleaning lady who kept having her money stolen, three times from her purse in her car (not to bright to leave her purse in her car unattended). Once may be but three times? She wasn't allowed to have a bank account. I've heard around here of people not being allowed to open bank accounts to, seems totally bizarre to me.