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Ebola Virus

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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Zakharra   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:40 am

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smr wrote:It's better to be laughingstock for crying Wolf than be caught flat footed by Ebola. Just look at Japan, they had a cult with PHD's in it that made Sarin gas in order to bring on End times according to their leader! Their are people that have no compassion for society as a whole, only compassion for an individual group(s). America this is our wakeup call to secure the borders.

Securing the border is a national defense and health issue period! If people want to make immigration a political issue then adjust the legal immigration limits through Congress!

I did a calculation of the world population of 6 billion with a mortality rate of 90% and got a number of 120 million survivors. That's a scary thought.

http://www.newsmax.com/SciTech/US-TEC-Ebola-Bot/2014/08/09/id/587830/

If I mentioned this as evidence I would be ridiculed as crazy!



Wouldn't 10% surviving from 6 billion be 6 hundred million rather than 120 million?
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:42 pm

namelessfly

Oops!


Zakharra wrote:
smr wrote:It's better to be laughingstock for crying Wolf than be caught flat footed by Ebola. Just look at Japan, they had a cult with PHD's in it that made Sarin gas in order to bring on End times according to their leader! Their are people that have no compassion for society as a whole, only compassion for an individual group(s). America this is our wakeup call to secure the borders.

Securing the border is a national defense and health issue period! If people want to make immigration a political issue then adjust the legal immigration limits through Congress!

I did a calculation of the world population of 6 billion with a mortality rate of 90% and got a number of 120 million survivors. That's a scary thought.

http://www.newsmax.com/SciTech/US-TEC-Ebola-Bot/2014/08/09/id/587830/

If I mentioned this as evidence I would be ridiculed as crazy!



Wouldn't 10% surviving from 6 billion be 6 hundred million rather than 120 million?
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:02 pm

namelessfly

The E wrote:
smr wrote:I did a calculation of the world population of 6 billion with a mortality rate of 90% and got a number of 120 million survivors. That's a scary thought.


That's not how diseases work, you know. Especially not deadly ones, since it assumes that noone will change their daily routine one tiny bit in the face of an epidemic. It's a scary thought, yes, but it's in "not even wrong" territory when it comes to estimating the final death count.



That somewhat flawed calculation is based on the presumption that 100% of the population becomes infected. Using the common flu as an example, we never suffer a 100% infection rate. When the flu is particularly virulent, we also observe people changing their behavior to reduce their risk of infection and governments impose quarantines to contain outbreaks.

Ebola has the potential to achieve a much higher infection rate because it is so horrific. The symptoms and known fatality rate will inevitably induce panic in infected people plus the virus seriously impairs brain function. Right now the three African countries affected by Ebola are employing their military to impose a quarantine and CLOSE THEIR BORDERS to contain the disease. This will work as long as the disease resides in isolated, rural communities. However; if Ebola infects a significant fraction of the population in a major urban area, there is a risk of
societal collapse becomes extreme. At that point, the changes in people's behavior (aka panic and chaos) will aid the spread of the disease. Factor in the known potential for intraspecies transmission (rats) and you could see infection rates that are sky high. As social order disintegrates, the industrial infrastructure that sustains people will be compromised. Famine will result and other diseases would become rampant. It would not be an extinction level event, but it will threaten civilization.
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Northstar   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:03 pm

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namelessfly wrote:

That somewhat flawed calculation is based on the presumption that 100% of the population becomes infected. Using the common flu as an example, we never suffer a 100% infection rate. When the flu is particularly virulent, we also observe people changing their behavior to reduce their risk of infection and governments impose quarantines to contain outbreaks.

Ebola has the potential to achieve a much higher infection rate because it is so horrific. The symptoms and known fatality rate will inevitably induce panic in infected people plus the virus seriously impairs brain function. Right now the three African countries affected by Ebola are employing their military to impose a quarantine and CLOSE THEIR BORDERS to contain the disease. This will work as long as the disease resides in isolated, rural communities. However; if Ebola infects a significant fraction of the population in a major urban area, there is a risk of
societal collapse becomes extreme. At that point, the changes in people's behavior (aka panic and chaos) will aid the spread of the disease. Factor in the known potential for intraspecies transmission (rats) and you could see infection rates that are sky high. As social order disintegrates, the industrial infrastructure that sustains people will be compromised. Famine will result and other diseases would become rampant. It would not be an extinction level event, but it will threaten civilization.


Unfortunately, you are correct so let's all hope it fizzles away. Let's also hope it does not mutate into airborne. Controlling an airborne Hot agent for which there is no vaccine is just about impossible. E.Zaire makes Variola Major, aka smallpox, look like the common cold with one exception; Smallpox is airborne spread. OTOH, there is a vaccine for smallpox. People my age got it once upon a time. Also, all of us are descendants of people who survived Smallpox, which may mean our immune systems have the genetics to cope with it. hopefully. :? . This is not so for Ebola. We're most all of us immune systems 'virgins' at dealing with Ebola. Which is not good.

However this airborne/ fluid borne distinction matters a lot. Part of the problem in Africa is cultural insistence on doing things like washing and kissing the dead. Ummm this is an easy way for it to spread. That method would not apply most places. Most of us do not kiss people dead of horrific contagious diseases.

Has quarantine ever worked? Anywhere? In theory it should but humans are not theories. The reality is messy and chaotic and sneaky.

I repeat, can you shelter at home? For how long? Crap happens, most of it only minor, but SHTF events go down fast and there would be zero time to correct shortages in your cupboards, etc. Does having a stash of whatever size guarantee you survive? Of course not, but it sure beats being utterly unprepared. End of my broken record on that aspect. I promise. I had to say it and pound on it a bit, but what you do with it is your decision, folks. :D
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:32 pm

namelessfly

Your shelter in place advice is right on unless the industrial infrastructure that supports you breaks down. Unless you have a well with a hand pump or have stockpiled water and fuel, canned goods and jerky rather than frozen foods, your preparations might be in vain. If rioting becomes widespread (happening now in Missouri), you will have your supplies taken from you and may be get infected too.

One horrific feature of Ebola is that it can be spread through semen, so anarchy could enable the fraction of male survivors to spread the disease through rape.

Shelter in place with your stockpile of supplies, but those supplies better include guns and ammo.

Northstar wrote:
namelessfly wrote:

That somewhat flawed calculation is based on the presumption that 100% of the population becomes infected. Using the common flu as an example, we never suffer a 100% infection rate. When the flu is particularly virulent, we also observe people changing their behavior to reduce their risk of infection and governments impose quarantines to contain outbreaks.

Ebola has the potential to achieve a much higher infection rate because it is so horrific. The symptoms and known fatality rate will inevitably induce panic in infected people plus the virus seriously impairs brain function. Right now the three African countries affected by Ebola are employing their military to impose a quarantine and CLOSE THEIR BORDERS to contain the disease. This will work as long as the disease resides in isolated, rural communities. However; if Ebola infects a significant fraction of the population in a major urban area, there is a risk of
societal collapse becomes extreme. At that point, the changes in people's behavior (aka panic and chaos) will aid the spread of the disease. Factor in the known potential for intraspecies transmission (rats) and you could see infection rates that are sky high. As social order disintegrates, the industrial infrastructure that sustains people will be compromised. Famine will result and other diseases would become rampant. It would not be an extinction level event, but it will threaten civilization.


Unfortunately, you are correct so let's all hope it fizzles away. Let's also hope it does not mutate into airborne. Controlling an airborne Hot agent for which there is no vaccine is just about impossible. E.Zaire makes Variola Major, aka smallpox, look like the common cold with one exception; Smallpox is airborne spread. OTOH, there is a vaccine for smallpox. People my age got it once upon a time. Also, all of us are descendants of people who survived Smallpox, which may mean our immune systems have the genetics to cope with it. hopefully. :? . This is not so for Ebola. We're most all of us immune systems 'virgins' at dealing with Ebola. Which is not good.

However this airborne/ fluid borne distinction matters a lot. Part of the problem in Africa is cultural insistence on doing things like washing and kissing the dead. Ummm this is an easy way for it to spread. That method would not apply most places. Most of us do not kiss people dead of horrific contagious diseases.

Has quarantine ever worked? Anywhere? In theory it should but humans are not theories. The reality is messy and chaotic and sneaky.

I repeat, can you shelter at home? For how long? Crap happens, most of it only minor, but SHTF events go down fast and there would be zero time to correct shortages in your cupboards, etc. Does having a stash of whatever size guarantee you survive? Of course not, but it sure beats being utterly unprepared. End of my broken record on that aspect. I promise. I had to say it and pound on it a bit, but what you do with it is your decision, folks. :D
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Arol   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:48 pm

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The number of known Ebol victims in Lagos (pop. 21 million) has now reached 10 acording to Nigerian officials.
Acording to a WHO official it's 13.
The discrepency of 3 is somewhat worrying, if the 3 are not in quarrantine.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... ick-sawyer
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Spacekiwi   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:22 pm

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Or the goverment suspects 3 are ebola carriers, but the who hasnt confirmed it?


Arol wrote:The number of known Ebol victims in Lagos (pop. 21 million) has now reached 10 acording to Nigerian officials.
Acording to a WHO official it's 13.
The discrepency of 3 is somewhat worrying, if the 3 are not in quarrantine.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... ick-sawyer
`
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Thucydides   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:06 pm

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Recordkeeping and various control measures we take for granted are pretty weak in Africa. The person who got on the airplane was some sort of government official, who evidently knew he was suffering from something, but got on the plane regardless.

Not only could he have infected multiple people on the airplane (most of whom left the airport and went about their daily business), but was actually in the process of being sprung from the hospital in order to attend a conference when he died!

Given that resources for fighting the disease are thin on the ground to begin with, we also have to factor the deliberate destruction of social and medical infrastructure in many parts of Africa by Islamic radicals, so infected people will have no access to treatment or quarantine at all....

The only bright spot in this picture is very long term. When the Black Plague killed about 30% of the European population, the economic foundations of feudalism were weakened. Labour shortages allowed the remaining poor to gain a large and non inflationary wage increase, and fostered social mobility and innovation which made the late Middle Ages a much better place to be over all, and laid some of the foundations towards kurt modern society. Perhaps something of this dynamic can start to work in Africa.

Otherwise, I suggest you dig out a copy of Steven King's book "The Stand"
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by KNick   » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:28 am

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now I have several questions.

How many were suffering from chronic immune system diseases such as HIV/AIDS, malaria, Tuberculosis?

How many were suffering from chronic malnutrition? Chronic vitamin deficiency?

How many had any of the dozens of parasitic worms, fungi or diseases?

Did they have access to uncontaminated water? Did they have access to health care that wasn't being provided by the people whom they most distrusted/feared?

How many were suffering from more than one of the above problems?

Since none of the dead were autopsied, those are all unanswered questions. Yet the answers are important when it comes to figuring out just how deadly Ebola would be world wide. A disease, any disease, that starts in an already sick population is going to be more deadly to that population than it would be to a healthy population.

I am not saying that Ebola is not a killer. I am not saying that it is not a world-wide threat. I am saying that panic and fear bred by ignorance is not the best response. The WHO has screamed pandemic to many times that have not turned out to be as bad as they claim.

Should people be wary? Definitely. Should both people and governments by prepared? Of course. But before resorting to panic measures, find out all the facts.

One item to keep in mind is that most of the health scares of the past century are diseases of poverty and poor health care aided by ignorance and superstition. Better education and standards of living would do more to quell such outbreaks than any other reaction.
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Re: Ebola Virus
Post by Emo Otaku   » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:31 am

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namelessfly wrote:Oops!


Zakharra wrote:

Wouldn't 10% surviving from 6 billion be 6 hundred million rather than 120 million?


When you factor in deaths from secondary causes i.e. other diseases caused by millions of unburied dead, famine caused by the breakdown in food distribution, and the rioting caused by the collapse of civilisation.

then 120 million is not an unimaginable number.

But its not extinction 120 million is about the human population in 0 AD

Hoping that the new society's that form can keep scientific knowledge intact. then its unlikely that mankind would completely lose our technological civilisation. We may backside a little but much faster than anyone believes we'll be back where we started, and with the example of the past we'll hopefully spread beyond this fragile egg and out into the universe.
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