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Counter Missile

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Re: Counter Missile
Post by Alistair   » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:56 pm

Alistair
Rear Admiral

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runsforcelery wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:If you're using your main tubes to fire the CM you can use the telemetry for those tubes to link the ship to those CM.

Works much better for the smaller ships that lack many CM tubes. Like the Wolfhound or Avalon. Which are also the ships that would need to multiply their CM options.

On the other hand if you think that main telemetry can only be used with a specific missiles, for some reason, then the smaller ships that have so few CM tubes should have left over telemetry if the designers did their job.

Of course we could all just assume the designers didn't build any redundancy into the defensive telemetry, although I can't think of why. It isn't like these ship ever get damaged or anything.

As for pointing out that the only ship that has its telemetry maxed defensively also has so many more CM tubes than any other ship and has no main missile tubes anyway. That would be...one will just assume you didn't do that.



Look, the point they were trying --- unsuccessfully --- to make to you is that the telemetry links are dedicated and that the dedication is based on the type of missile they are designed to control. You can't suddenly start using the main battery fire control of an Iowa-class BB to control its 40 mm mounts, and you CAN'T use the telemetry links of the shipkiller tubes to manage counter missiles. Not "Wouldn't it be cool if," not "Well of course, they could, except that they're too stupid to figure out it would be a good idea," not "Of course no one else in the 2,000-year history of the Honorverse ever even considered this new and brilliant idea," but "can't because it's impossible."

Don't know how anyone could say it any clearer, but you are completely, totally, and categorically wasting your time beating this dead horse. Just as you are with the notion that somehow putting a PD laser into a counter missile would produce anything remotely like a useful weapon system, or that deploying mines to stop missiles would be remotely worth the effort (or even physically possible), or that you can somehow use missile or drone impeller wedges to cover a ship against incoming fire.

The fact that you repeatedly throw out these ideas and then totally ignore people who tell you they won't work --- including ignoring me when I tell you the idea is impossible under Honorverse tech constraints --- means that no one in his right mind is going to pay attention or notice when you actually come up with something that might actually work for a change.



Ouch thats got to hurt!
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Re: Counter Missile
Post by MaxxQ   » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:03 pm

MaxxQ
BuNine

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Location: Greer, South Carolina USA

Alistair wrote:Ouch thats got to hurt!


Why? It's never worked before. What makes you think it'll work now?

Unless someone quotes him, I'll never see if he ever *does* come up with a good idea, and even *if* he does, I'll never acknowledge it, because it'll just convince him that his method of shotgunning stupid ideas and occasionally hitting something is a good way to go about it. Which means we'll have to put up with him even more.
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Re: Counter Missile
Post by pushmar   » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:06 pm

pushmar
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 144
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Location: <Moscow, Idaho> Nope, back in Michigan.

Okay, here's an idea - and let me know if anyone has asked or thought of this before.

Counter-missiles work by wedge-on-wedge contact between the CM and the ship-killer, right? So, is it possible for an attacking ship-killer missile to either turn off or throttle down it's wedge when a CM arrives? If the wedge can't be restarted in mid-flight, or throttled down, could it possibly be, say, "fluctuated" down intentionally, so as to avoid the CM's wedge at the very moment the CM passes by?

Just a thought.
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Re: Counter Missile
Post by MaxxQ   » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:18 pm

MaxxQ
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pushmar wrote:Okay, here's an idea - and let me know if anyone has asked or thought of this before.

Counter-missiles work by wedge-on-wedge contact between the CM and the ship-killer, right? So, is it possible for an attacking ship-killer missile to either turn off or throttle down it's wedge when a CM arrives? If the wedge can't be restarted in mid-flight, or throttled down, could it possibly be, say, "fluctuated" down intentionally, so as to avoid the CM's wedge at the very moment the CM passes by?

Just a thought.


No. Once a missile wedge is "on", it's on all the way, either at full-power, or at half-power. The only time a missile can bring up a wedge more than once is if it's a dual-drive missile (Mk-16) or multi-drive missile (Mk-23, etc), and even then, it's using a completely seperate set of nodes.

For a missile wedge to do something like that, it would need to shut down all the way. You can't "throttle down" to a lower power to allow the CM to pass it by, as *any* wedge-on-wedge contact, regardless of what power setting it is, will result in the destruction of the nodes (and the missile itself) of both missiles.

OTOH, if there is a huge disparity in the size and power of the wedge, such as a missile wedge hitting that of a ship, the missile wedge (and the missile) would be destroyed and the ship's wedge might not even notice it had been hit.

Just a little hyperbole there, but more or less what would happen.
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Re: Counter Missile
Post by swalke813   » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:36 pm

swalke813
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 60
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MaxxQ wrote:
Alistair wrote:Ouch thats got to hurt!


Why? It's never worked before. What makes you think it'll work now?

Unless someone quotes him, I'll never see if he ever *does* come up with a good idea, and even *if* he does, I'll never acknowledge it, because it'll just convince him that his method of shotgunning stupid ideas and occasionally hitting something is a good way to go about it. Which means we'll have to put up with him even more.



I think we just found Sonja. She did exactly the same thing, until Hamish ignored any idea she came up with.
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Re: Counter Missile
Post by kzt   » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:52 pm

kzt
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MaxxQ wrote:In addition, I should probably point out that you can't launch a missile *that* much smaller than the tube through it. Unless you put a *really* big collar on a CM, it can't be fired through a normal missile tube. All missiles only have a couple centimeters of clearance between the skin of the missile and the inner surface of the launch tube *at most*. IOW, if the missile is 1 meter in diameter, the inside diameter of the launch tube cannot - let me repeat *CANNOT* - be larger than 1 meter, 4 centimeters or so.

Why is this? It's not like the gas from the propellant charge going to leak out past the round like you get with an actual gun. It's all moved, suspended and driven by grav fields.
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Re: Counter Missile
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:59 pm

Jonathan_S
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runsforcelery wrote:
Look, the point they were trying --- unsuccessfully --- to make to you is that the telemetry links are dedicated and that the dedication is based on the type of missile they are designed to control. You can't suddenly start using the main battery fire control of an Iowa-class BB to control its 40 mm mounts
Although surprisingly you can, and they sometimes did, use the 40mm mount's Mk 51 Fire Control system for the 5" guns in AA mode.

The ballistics didn't match, but when using proximity fuses at short range they were close enough to manually compensate for. And my understanding is that the Mk 51 could set up a "snap shot" much quicker than the more sophisticated Mk 37. Not a trivial concern when a kamikaze pops out of the clouds headed straight for your ship.
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Re: Counter Missile
Post by MaxxQ   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:36 am

MaxxQ
BuNine

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kzt wrote:
MaxxQ wrote:In addition, I should probably point out that you can't launch a missile *that* much smaller than the tube through it. Unless you put a *really* big collar on a CM, it can't be fired through a normal missile tube. All missiles only have a couple centimeters of clearance between the skin of the missile and the inner surface of the launch tube *at most*. IOW, if the missile is 1 meter in diameter, the inside diameter of the launch tube cannot - let me repeat *CANNOT* - be larger than 1 meter, 4 centimeters or so.

Why is this? It's not like the gas from the propellant charge going to leak out past the round like you get with an actual gun. It's all moved, suspended and driven by grav fields.


Oh, god. Here we go again.

Because the grav field is *very* powerful, but also *very* short-ranged. Sure, you *might* be able to get a CM out through a standard missile tube, but not with the same efficiency of firing it through it's own tube.

Or maybe you think the field extends all the way across the tube, if not farther? What about the effects of all those intersecting grav fields at the center of the tube?

Otherwise, why have different-sized tubes at all? Why not just make them *all* the same size? Standardization/commonality/interchangeability of parts is certainly much cheaper and easier to work with after all.

<shrug> Other people in BuNine might be able to give you a better "technical" reason for it, but don't you think having different "caliber" tubes more closely matches David's original vision of mimicking age-of-sail weaponry?
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Re: Counter Missile
Post by MaxxQ   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:43 am

MaxxQ
BuNine

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swalke813 wrote:
MaxxQ wrote:
Why? It's never worked before. What makes you think it'll work now?

Unless someone quotes him, I'll never see if he ever *does* come up with a good idea, and even *if* he does, I'll never acknowledge it, because it'll just convince him that his method of shotgunning stupid ideas and occasionally hitting something is a good way to go about it. Which means we'll have to put up with him even more.

I think we just found Sonja. She did exactly the same thing, until Hamish ignored any idea she came up with.


Oh, believe me... I've already made the connection. The big difference is that Hemphill occasionally *did* come up with a good idea, whereas skimper has *never* come up with a good idea (despite the fact that some people here have said that a couple of his "thoughts" might be workable - I disagree compltely only because it came from him, and if that makes me a Hamish... well, I can think of worse people in the Honorverse to be compared to), and as time goes by, they get even worse. Not to mention that Hemphill actually pays attention to the Way Things Work in her universe.
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Re: Counter Missile
Post by The E   » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:39 am

The E
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MaxxQ wrote:I think we just found Sonja. She did exactly the same thing, until Hamish ignored any idea she came up with.


Oh, believe me... I've already made the connection. The big difference is that Hemphill occasionally *did* come up with a good idea, whereas skimper has *never* come up with a good idea (despite the fact that some people here have said that a couple of his "thoughts" might be workable - I disagree compltely only because it came from him, and if that makes me a Hamish... well, I can think of worse people in the Honorverse to be compared to), and as time goes by, they get even worse. Not to mention that Hemphill actually pays attention to the Way Things Work in her universe.[/quote]

It's that last part that makes the difference. Hemphill is an innovator, and not all her innovations are practical, but she still plays by the rules of the universe she inhabits.
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