Caslet.....

Weird Harold wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:
Yes Harold. Your idea is the same.

No it isn't, although "Amnesty" is a sub-class of "Pardon" they are distinct concepts.

Wikipedia wrote:
Amnesty ... is defined as: "A pardon extended by the government to a group or class of persons, usually for a political offense; the act of a sovereign power officially forgiving certain classes of persons who are subject to trial but have not yet been convicted." It includes more than pardon, in as much as it obliterates all legal remembrance of the offense. Amnesty is more and more used to express "freedom" and the time when prisoners can go free.

Wikipedia wrote:
A pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and the cancellation of the relevant penalty; it is usually granted by a head of state (such as a monarch or president) or by acts of a parliament or a religious authority.

In essence, a Pardon is post-trial and conviction, an Amnesty is forgiveness before arrest and trial. Pardons are generally applied to specific crimes and sentences while amnesties are generally applied to a range of political crimes -- draft dodging, draft card burning, aiding and abetting draft dodgers, etc, for example.

Weird Harold wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:
Yes Harold. Your idea is the same.

No it isn't, although "Amnesty" is a sub-class of "Pardon" they are distinct concepts.

Wikipedia wrote:
Amnesty ... is defined as: "A pardon extended by the government to a group or class of persons, usually for a political offense; the act of a sovereign power officially forgiving certain classes of persons who are subject to trial but have not yet been convicted." It includes more than pardon, in as much as it obliterates all legal remembrance of the offense. Amnesty is more and more used to express "freedom" and the time when prisoners can go free.

Wikipedia wrote:
A pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and the cancellation of the relevant penalty; it is usually granted by a head of state (such as a monarch or president) or by acts of a parliament or a religious authority.

In essence, a Pardon is post-trial and conviction, an Amnesty is forgiveness before arrest and trial. Pardons are generally applied to specific crimes and sentences while amnesties are generally applied to a range of political crimes -- draft dodging, draft card burning, aiding and abetting draft dodgers, etc, for example.

Thanks SWM, for coming to my rescue. Many moons of posts ago, I appealed to everyone's good nature, to be mindful of carrying a six shooter on our hips and quick to draw and fire on a poster. In the Wild West, cowboys were shot and killed over the most asinine of disagreements. Sad that many were just misunderstandings, as is this occasion as well.

I did not use the wrong vocabulary, SWM, though I thank you for supporting the spirit of calm.

When I said "Yes Harold. Your idea is the same," I was not referring to a comparison between "amnesty" and "pardon," rather the acceptance that my idea of there being a middle ground — somewhere inbetween "treason" and "pardon" — existed and also that my idea of reducing the charge was the same, in spirit, to Harold's idea — which came first. I was simply conceding the original thinking to Harold, giving credit where credit is due, so to speak. I didn't expect, or deserve to be chastised or lectured on the differences of "pardon" and "amnesty" ??? I assume that we are all college graduates and wikiing the difference between "pardon" and "amnesty" is insulting. Are we so caught up in our own delusions of grandeur in America? I am a pretty good speller, but not perfect. My grammar falters at times. My typing is sub par, with what I've seen out there, (My niece used to wear several keyboards out a year until I found her one that can handle the pace), and my thoughts oftentimes flow senselessly, trying to keep up with a hunt and peck software keyboard on a hunt and peck seven inch android device ...

yet

I graduated in the top two percent in Civil Engineering at my University and had made my first million by end of my Freshman year! I freaked my mom and siblings out by making over 100K before I was 14. Now, I don't think I am superior to anyone. Nor do I act it. I won't call anyone on misspellings, lest it be done privately, in an email. I personally feel that it is far worse to be rude than to misspell. "Honorverse" has been misspelled in the forum in a thread's title. I would never consider something as rude and crass as posting that fact out, as if I am a master of all things English. Moreover, as if I am a master of all knowledge. I do what I do, and I do Civil Engineering quite well. I became a multi-millionaire in what I knew from a hobby, computers — began as a little tyke — by age twenty five. Yet neither of those accomplishments fail to pale in comparison to the accomplishments of many of you, or to the accomplishments of my sister — a medical research genius at RTP (Research Triangle Park), or her genius of a 12-yr-old daughter, or any of my siblings, or the accomplishments of Romanian friends who are all doctors, surgeons and physicists. My point is that none of us should behave as if we've cornered the market on intelligence, lest we suffer a crash.

I awoke late this morn with several emails awaiting in my inbox complaining of this post. "We don't understand. What did you say that was all wrong?"

In another thread, I took the opportunity to invite, AGAIN, almost twenty of my very dear friends, Romanians, who are Honorverse fans to the forum. I have been trying to recruit them for months but American rudeness puts them off. My latest plea to them was just a few days ago ...

SEE, FRIENDS IN ROMANIA? ...

I'm American and I screw up phrases, idioms, language, spelling and grammar too. So ... time to join the forum? Not everyone will make the forum a chopping block for heads. Okay?

This was my last attempt to recruit them as I must respect their wishes. American delusions of grandeur in all things is foreign to them and such behavior would hurt them greatly inside. They wish to protect themselves. We can't put it all down to a cultural difference, as rudeness ... is rudeness.

When we can no longer concede a point to someone and give credit without kicking off a lecture, then America ... it is high time we pump the brakes.

If this had been the old west ... I shudder to think. Please people ... drink coffee. Disarm.



Personally, I'm still at odds trying to determine exactly where the disagreement originated. I was only agreeing with his own apparent sentiment.

cthia wrote:
I was thinking, instead of a pardon, can't the charge just be reduced to ...

Weird Harold wrote:
That's why I suggested an "Amnesty for acts of conscience" rather than a Pardon.

Surely we have conquered The Wild Wild West.

cthia wrote:<snip>

My apologies if you took my correction of the idiom the wrong way the other day. I was *not* intending to come across as a Grammar Nazi, but just pointing out an error I see all too often. I suppose I could have just let it go, and usually I *do* let things like that go, unless the error has a humorous angle to it, but I didn't, and now it seems that I may have ruffled a feather or two.

As for all of us being college graduates... not really. I quit after my first year of art college, mainly due to lack of finances, even with a partial scholarship. I also barely passed enough english classes in high school to allow me to graduate. That was because I am lazy, and don't really grasp the rules of english to the point where I could recite them to you - I have a more intuitive feel for it, and can usually tell when a sentence is constructed wrong. I can tell you how it *should* read, but not the reason why, and I've always had good spelling skills.

Basic typos I usually completely let slide, as even *I* make them due to fat-fingering the keyboard, but there are some errors that are *not* typos (and I also take into account whether the person is a native english-speaker or not) that will raise my hackles. That said, I usually restrain myself from pointing them out, but when I do, it's *not* with the intention of trying to belittle the person making the mistake, but more along the lines of a decent teacher trying to make sure his student(s) get it right, not that I consider myself a teacher.

IMO, being able to write correctly goes a long way towards my deciding whether the writer is worth paying attention to, again, not including non-native speakers/writers. I suppose that sounds arrogant, and maybe it is, but that's just my opinion, FWIW. Typos due to fat-fingering phone, pad, or regular keyboards are pretty easy to figure out and as I said, I pretty much ignore those, but when someone constantly spells "definitely" as "defiantly", I start to get a tad irritated. And yes, I know there are dyslexic folks out there as well, although it's harder to determine that from a monitor.

In the end, I just want to apologize again if I offended you, and I will make an effort to stop correcting people.

Unless the misspelling is humerus

MaxxQ wrote:

cthia wrote:<snip>

My apologies if you took my correction of the idiom the wrong way the other day. I was *not* intending to come across as a Grammar Nazi, but just pointing out an error I see all too often. I suppose I could have just let it go, and usually I *do* let things like that go, unless the error has a humorous angle to it, but I didn't, and now it seems that I may have ruffled a feather or two.

As for all of us being college graduates... not really. I quit after my first year of art college, mainly due to lack of finances, even with a partial scholarship. I also barely passed enough english classes in high school to allow me to graduate. That was because I am lazy, and don't really grasp the rules of english to the point where I could recite them to you - I have a more intuitive feel for it, and can usually tell when a sentence is constructed wrong. I can tell you how it *should* read, but not the reason why, and I've always had good spelling skills.

Basic typos I usually completely let slide, as even *I* make them due to fat-fingering the keyboard, but there are some errors that are *not* typos (and I also take into account whether the person is a native english-speaker or not) that will raise my hackles. That said, I usually restrain myself from pointing them out, but when I do, it's *not* with the intention of trying to belittle the person making the mistake, but more along the lines of a decent teacher trying to make sure his student(s) get it right, not that I consider myself a teacher.

IMO, being able to write correctly goes a long way towards my deciding whether the writer is worth paying attention to, again, not including non-native speakers/writers. I suppose that sounds arrogant, and maybe it is, but that's just my opinion, FWIW. Typos due to fat-fingering phone, pad, or regular keyboards are pretty easy to figure out and as I said, I pretty much ignore those, but when someone constantly spells "definitely" as "defiantly", I start to get a tad irritated. And yes, I know there are dyslexic folks out there as well, although it's harder to determine that from a monitor.

In the end, I just want to apologize again if I offended you, and I will make an effort to stop correcting people.

Unless the misspelling is humerus

Thanks for your sentiments Maxx, but your correction was one of the most sensitive, lacking in condescension, and respectful that I've ever come across. It was not the focus of your post, you didn't lead with it, and the entire tone of your post was quite acceptable. I suppose, if one must correct within a thread, yours was an example of how to go about it. That is why I used my response to your post as an opportunity to "invite" foreign friends to the forum, using your post as example that all forumites are not, as they think, head hunters, with their "I'm not joining and putting my head in the chopping box." (One of their incorrect idioms.)

What my foreign friends constantly bring up, one after the other, is whether it is proper etiquette to do the same correcting, on the spot, in a public setting, because it isn't in their culture, or anywhere in the UK, unless a certain level of familiarity is present. It isn't in America either. One does not go around correcting one's grammar. It is simply considered rude. Therefore, how does a public forum suddenly give carte blanche to do so; especially when this forum gives a much less condescending, a much more sensitive way of doing so, with email? Therefore, yielding a much higher probability it shall be heeded and appreciated.

I've heard the argument that one's time is important and they feel that their precious time is being wasted in reading (and I agree that some are) illegible posts, so they take the time to correct in a tasteless manner. That reason is bollox. Inciting and embarrassing someone is only going to spawn more related posts that further waste time ... of everyone else's as well, who ordinarily had the good taste to overlook, pass over or discretely email. Everyone can't spell. That's the cold hard truth. Should we deny them use of the forum?

All I'm saying, is that I wouldn't want someone capable of the kind of social faux pas I've seen in the forum amongst my circle of acquaintances. Nor can I begin to understand how "they" manage not to get themselves thrown out of many venues.

Again, I didn't take particular issue with your post Maxx, and even appreciate your sensitivity.

Correcting others on a keyboard where no one can hear tone of voice or see facial expressions can be risky business even when the intent is humor. It's best to just ask for clarification if bad spelling or grammar mucks up the meaning. Otherwise let it go rather than make someone feel uncomfortable.

Don

Weird Harold wrote:

Wikipedia wrote:A pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and the cancellation of the relevant penalty; it is usually granted by a head of state (such as a monarch or president) or by acts of a parliament or a religious authority.

In essence, a Pardon is post-trial and conviction, an Amnesty is forgiveness before arrest and trial. Pardons are generally applied to specific crimes and sentences while amnesties are generally applied to a range of political crimes -- draft dodging, draft card burning, aiding and abetting draft dodgers, etc, for example.

Ford pardoned Nixon before any trial, much less conviction. No one has challenged his authority to do so. Therefore pardon is not limited to "post-trial and conviction".

The distinction I make between the two words is that a specific named person is pardoned, while a group of people defined by certain criteria is granted amnesty.

Hi RoseandHeather,

From "1776", quoting Ben Franklin; pretty bad history as historical musicals generally are, but some great songs I find myself often humming.

So to quote another favorite science fiction author of mine, Donald Barr [now deceased] in "Space Relations" [1971], "the real motto of any revolution is 'Why wait?'".

Also enjoy his "Planet in Arms" [1981], which I read first that seems to relate some of his OSS experiences, and went well out of my way 30 years ago to get "Space Relations", which despite the absurd PB cover, among other things includes an appropriate Latin-English poem [both $.01 used at Amazon].

Now how often do you read that in science fiction?

L

roseandheather wrote:*quote="Weird Harold"*[quote="hanuman"]...then there's a definite case that they too committed treason against Haven.*quote*

"Treason never prospers. For if it prospers, none dare call it treason." -- Ben Franklin(?)

Or, as a particular Revolutionary War musical says, "Treason is a charge invented by the winners as an excuse for hanging the losers." [/quote]