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Q for Military Historians

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Q for Military Historians
Post by Alistair   » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:46 pm

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Charis is about to move to ten round rifles and smokeless powder-

Possibly if they are lucky they could field a small force equipped with these new rifles by early summer.

My question given a force of say 10,000 Charis troops equipped with a standard load of mortars artillery etc with these new rifles /pistols going up against Temple troops equipped with their new rifle and artillery what would the odds be for the "Temple boys" to win on Defence and on attack.

(I realise a lot depends on moral logistics intelligence and terrain as well as the competency of Generals in question) but as a a guesstimate how good will these new rifles with there smokeless powder be?

Anyone with any knowledge of historical battles to give any insights?
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Re: Q for Military Historians
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:35 pm

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Alistair wrote:Anyone with any knowledge of historical battles to give any insights?


The first historical example of Smokeless Powder VS Black Powder that comes to mind is the Spanish American War and specifically Teddy Roosevelt's capture of San Juan Hill. Unfortunately, in that example the Black Powder Krags triumphed over the smokeless Mausers, so I doubt it will be any predictor of Safeholdian battles. :lol:

Memoirs of that battle do comment liberally on the range and power of the Mausers and the difficulty in locating the enemy due to the lack of powder smoke. After action reports spurred the development of the Springfield 30-06 and other smokeless powder arms for the US military.
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Re: Q for Military Historians
Post by jtg452   » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:25 pm

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Alistair wrote:Charis is about to move to ten round rifles and smokeless powder-

Possibly if they are lucky they could field a small force equipped with these new rifles by early summer.

My question given a force of say 10,000 Charis troops equipped with a standard load of mortars artillery etc with these new rifles /pistols going up against Temple troops equipped with their new rifle and artillery what would the odds be for the "Temple boys" to win on Defence and on attack.

(I realise a lot depends on moral logistics intelligence and terrain as well as the competency of Generals in question) but as a a guesstimate how good will these new rifles with there smokeless powder be?

Anyone with any knowledge of historical battles to give any insights?

The cartridge guns that the Charisans are about to roll out aren't using smokeless yet.

They are using pelletized BP for a propellent. Pyrodex (a BP substitute- it acts like BP when shot but isn't as dangerous to store as the real thing) makes them today for muzzle loaders. It's a specific amount of powder (the ones I've seen are usually around 30gr) that has been compressed into a cylindrical form with a hole down the middle to aid ignition. I've tried a few for use in BP cartridge (1 30gr pellet in a .45 Colt case) but didn't like it.

Speaking from purely a volume of fire perspective, the Temple's Ferguson is probably going to max out at around a dozen shots a minute. Realistically, around 8 or 10 rounds per minute- they still have to cap or prime the pan on the thing. The longer they use it the heavier the fouling is going to be on the breech plug. With the Ferguson, the back end of the chamber is a big threaded plug. To open the action, you turn the crank that doubles as the trigger guard and the plug goes down and partially out of the bottom of the rifle so you have the room to feed in a ball and powder or, in the case of what the Temple plans to do, a paper cartridge, into the chamber. You can plan for fouling and make accommodations for it a little with the design but the fouling is going to start gumming up the action is pretty short order and slow the rate of fire. After a while (maybe 20-30 shots depending on the details of the design), they are going to have to really crank on the handle/trigger guard to drop the breech plug so they can load just because of all the powder residue that will build up.

The new Charisan rifle uses self contained cartridges and has a detachable box magazine. I figure the rate of fire is going to be 40 to 50 rounds per minute (4 or 5 times what you can do with a Ferguson) for a well trained infantryman. Call it a reasonable 1 shot per second with time lost swapping mags. How much time will be lost reloading depends on the mag design, the mag well design and the latching system. In other words, details that haven't been stated or probably even thought about. While the barrel is still going to foul- degrading its' accuracy, the cartridge will seal the chamber and keep the vast majority of the fouling out of the action, so the action will still be working long after the Temple's Ferguson action locks up.

As for the Temple Boys winning, the problem there is more of tactical doctrine than equipment. If they fight smart- forcing the Charisans into a situation that plays to their strengths- they have a chance on both the offense and defense.

On the offense, catching the Charisans on the move out in the open (meaning not in a prepared defensive position) while they have numerical superiority and can attack from a position close enough to close before they can dig in and use those superior numbers effectively. They can't diddle around on the attack. If they give the Charisans time to recover from the initial surprise, they are toast. They would have to take the initiative and hold onto it.

On defense, it's much the same thought, they will need superior numbers to make up their lack of individual rate of fire and make the Charisans fight on their terms at a time and place of their choosing. I really don't see a way they can force the issue while on the defensive. If they let the Charisans choose the timing of an attack, they are done unless they can pull off some sort of ruse.
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Re: Q for Military Historians
Post by Panzer   » Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:11 pm

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You probably won't get 50 rounds per minute from a bolt action rifle.

This thread kind of makes me think of the BEF at Mons. The British riflemen were well drilled enough with their SMLEs, that the Germans thought they ran into a bunch of machine guns.

I'm not sure what kind of rifle design RFC envisions, though.
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Re: Q for Military Historians
Post by Henry Brown   » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:12 am

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Panzer wrote:You probably won't get 50 rounds per minute from a bolt action rifle.

This thread kind of makes me think of the BEF at Mons. The British riflemen were well drilled enough with their SMLEs, that the Germans thought they ran into a bunch of machine guns.

I'm not sure what kind of rifle design RFC envisions, though.


From comments I have seen RFC make, I get the idea that he is a fan of the historical British navy and army. I have also got the impression that the M-96 Mahdrayn rifle is most similar to the Lee-Enfield British bolt action.
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Re: Q for Military Historians
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:09 am

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Hi Alistair,

The M96's rate of fire is more likely 15-20 rounds per minute.

It won't be until the late summer at the soonest that smokeless ammunition could make its appearance in Siddarmark.

Looking at the TO&E RFC has gifted us with 10,000 isn't enough for even 2 brigades, so the tactical results would probably be too murky to draw any useful results.

From the LaMA end of October textev, Howsmyn expects the 3 rifle lines at Delthak to have all started by the end of November or early February, so ~6000 M96's could have been produced in November, with the other 8 rifle lines starting production over the next 4 month's, so production could have made another 67,000 if they averaged a new start every 3 5days, then making ~46,000 per month from then on, assuming they did less than 3.5 hours of maintenance on each line each month. ;)

However if that rate is sustained, some 276,000 more might be built by the end of the year, for almost 350,000 when including November 96's ~6,000.

Given the ~75% rifle ratio of the ICA, the approximate 360,000 ICA combat troops need only ~270,000 to completely rearm with the M96; a figure reached before mid October, but the 5 lines at Maikelberg would take an extra 40-50 days transit time, even if most weren't held back to equip the new recruits.

If the 3 Lake Lyman lines were up by the end of February or so [sooner than projected above], the Old Charis total might be near 37,000 M96's and adding another 25,000 every month thereafter, for up to 262,000 by year's end.

So its most likely the ICA combat units in Siddarmark won't completely re-equip with the M96 until after February 898; who gets to be last will be interesting to see.

Does someone want to suggest a pool on who it is? ;)

I'm impressed that Howsmyn is so confident his tools and dies can be copied so closely to create 4 other rifle lines at Maikelberg; it's a quite a testament to the workers' skills there and the strict tolerances and measurements that are detailed in LaMA etc.

A nominal 70,000 man ICA army would need some 52,500 M96's, which theoretically might be shipped in June and arrive in July or early August, but given most of Maikelberg's production staying in Chisholm for now, the first army's replacements might not be sent until April, and arrive in mid-May, with follow on shipments about every 2 month's there after, if faster means aren't available by then.

Steam and sail freighters, based on the original King Haarahld VII combined power design, could get to SC in ~4 5days, and could be built far faster and cheaper than the improved design, for critical cargoes, including troop transports and fleet colliers.

Even averaging 15 mph its at least 28 days to Maikelberg one way from SC [~11,000 miles], or 2+ month's including loading etc, but still more than twice as fast as sail alone.

I don't see the M96 being critical to beating the IHA [TMHoGatA] if its split up into quarters, given the role I see for the flight 2 ironclads etc, on the Daivyn and Lake Isyk, as well as the Dairnyth canal etc.

However RFC may just have something a bit different in mind. ;) :D 8-)

OTOH, we'll be lucky HFQ will be ready by April.

L


Alistair wrote:Charis is about to move to ten round rifles and smokeless powder-

Possibly if they are lucky they could field a small force equipped with these new rifles by early summer.

My question given a force of say 10,000 Charis troops equipped with a standard load of mortars artillery etc with these new rifles /pistols going up against Temple troops equipped with their new rifle and artillery what would the odds be for the "Temple boys" to win on Defence and on attack.

(I realise a lot depends on moral logistics intelligence and terrain as well as the competency of Generals in question) but as a a guesstimate how good will these new rifles with there smokeless powder be?

Anyone with any knowledge of historical battles to give any insights?
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Q for Military Historians
Post by Silverwall   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:22 pm

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Panzer wrote:You probably won't get 50 rounds per minute from a bolt action rifle.

This thread kind of makes me think of the BEF at Mons. The British riflemen were well drilled enough with their SMLEs, that the Germans thought they ran into a bunch of machine guns.

I'm not sure what kind of rifle design RFC envisions, though.


Nowhere near 50 RPM at all. Looking at the Mad Minute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute the aim was for 15 hits per minute with the record held by a sergant instructor at 38 while using the action most suited to rapid fire (the Lee bolt was much faster to cycle than the Mauser or Lebel or Mosin Nagant and needed reloading 1/2 as often)

Back to the original question the difference isn't in the guns by this stage it's in the tactics and training of the men using them and the Charisian army is already at the stage of late WW1 infantry tactics while the Temple Loyalists are at best early Boer war more like American Civil War standards. This is probably a harder fix for the temple than just getting a better weapon.
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Re: Q for Military Historians
Post by Henry Brown   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:14 pm

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Silverwall wrote:Nowhere near 50 RPM at all. Looking at the Mad Minute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute the aim was for 15 hits per minute with the record held by a sergant instructor at 38 while using the action most suited to rapid fire (the Lee bolt was much faster to cycle than the Mauser or Lebel or Mosin Nagant and needed reloading 1/2 as often)

Back to the original question the difference isn't in the guns by this stage it's in the tactics and training of the men using them and the Charisian army is already at the stage of late WW1 infantry tactics while the Temple Loyalists are at best early Boer war more like American Civil War standards. This is probably a harder fix for the temple than just getting a better weapon.


I don't think the tactics are going to be as hard to fix as you think. I think the tactics of the early to mid 19th century were driven by the limitations of muzzle loading firearms. It is nearly impossible to quickly load a muzzleloader from a prone position. Furthermore, the rate of fire of a muzzle loading rifle is 3 or 4 rounds per minute, which meant that they still needed a fairly compact formation to ensure a heavy volume of fire.

The Ferguson rifle clone that has entered production can be loaded from a prone position. And it's rate of fire is something like 8-12 RPM from what I remember. Once this rifle reaches widespread distribution, I would expect the AoG to quickly start to emulate the tactics the Charisan army is already using, like prone fire and more widely dispersed unit formations.
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Re: Q for Military Historians
Post by n7axw   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:00 pm

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Hi Henry,

I think getting the tactics right is going to be more difficult than you think. The problem is going to be that if they are going to have sufficient numbers of rifles, they will have to continue to manufacture muzzle loaders because they can only produce about 1 breech loader for every 3 muzzle loaders.

So a majority of their troops will still be armed with muzzle loading weapons which will limit their ability to adapt their tactics.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Q for Military Historians
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:37 pm

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n7axw wrote:I think getting the tactics right is going to be more difficult than you think. The problem is going to be that if they are going to have sufficient numbers of rifles, they will have to continue to manufacture muzzle loaders ...


There is also the problem of ossified thinking in conservative commanders. Commanders who survive may adapt, but to do so successfully, they have to understand how technology has changed the battlefield. That's going to require unlearning everything they've known about tactics and accepting that the "Heretics" beat them with skill instead of luck.

There will be the occasional CoGA commander who adapts quickly but there will be far more that don't.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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