What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?

kzt wrote:

Relax wrote:Only reason GA will really want Streak in the foreseeable near future is to patrol ex SL worlds that broke away with no defenses, but are not trusted/given MDM pods/Moriarity for defense and therefore their defense requires ships and pods under GA control. Of course these ships will all be 2nd rate ships resigned to backwater duties.

You realize that 2nd rate ships rarely have the most cutting edge engineering systems installed? Or they wouldn't be second rate?

Context man. Obviously they will not be upgraded first, second, or even third.

Weird Harold wrote:Very true, task forces do travel at the speed of the slowest ship -- often ammunition or supply ships, which have pretty much been ignored so far.

Fleet train (ammo, supply, etc.) ships are always supplied with military hyper generators, particle shields and inertial compensators exactly so they can keep up. This is spelled out somewhere in the books.

Weird Harold wrote:A better inertial compensator doesn't let them build bigger ships and building bigger will slow down your entire task force when maneuvering tactically in N-Space. You might build a ship faster than your opponent, but bigger means slower and your bigger Streak Drive SDs won't be as fast in N-Space as your smaller unmodified SDs.

Wrong. The advanced inertial compensator is the reason why Manticoran SDs are as big as they are with the acceleration figures they have. A regular mil-spec inertial compensator on a ship that size would have truly pitiful acceleration.

A quick look at House of Steel and comparing the Sphinx and Gryphon class SDs (old compensators) with the Medusa and Invictus class pod SDs will show you the difference.

Relax wrote:Assumes: SL is still around in 2+ years. It won't be. GA already has enough ships to eliminate all ships in known space if they chose to do so.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't assume that. It's part of the reason for giving priority to smaller ships that can be built or converted faster.

Relax wrote:Assumes: GA can't build streak hyperdrive in Haven yards and MUST be done at Manticore. Talk about Manticore myopic glasses. R&D? Theory; sure, but prototyping? Nope.

I suspect that much like the Apollo capable Bolthole Special SDs, the basic systems will be built/installed in Haven yards but the production Streak Drives will be built initially in Beowulf.

Haven still hasn't matched Manticore or Beowulf in miniaturization and it will take some time to upgrade that technology and yard equipment so they can. If a GA version of the Streak Drive isn't amenable to miniaturization then the whole system can be built and installed by Haven.

The Manticore-centric argument is more about how improvements and new ships will be paid for. Home-built in Manticoran yards can be paid for with IOUs, Haven-built for the RMN needs cash.

Relax wrote:Assumes: SL worlds have MDM.
-- Cataphract pods are useless for defensive purposes against any GA force. Anyone thinks otherwise, I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you and I have heard the London Bridge is for sale. I have the deed, right here(searches under my...)

If you don't scout properly and don't know the Cataphracts are there, they can be extremely dangerous. Which was the point of mentioning Technodyne's System Defense monsters and Cataphract pods -- no matter how much pre-war intel the GA might have, current intel still matters.

Relax wrote:Only reason GA will really want Streak in the foreseeable near future is to patrol ex SL worlds that broke away with no defenses, but are not trusted/given MDM pods/Moriarity for defense and therefore their defense requires ships and pods under GA control. Of course these ships will all be 2nd rate ships resigned to backwater duties.

It has been demonstrated that RMN Heavy cruisers can control Apollo pods deployed in a system defense role; with Mycroft to add FTL fire-control, even light cruisers should be able to ride herd on borderline systems. Not that I think the GA will bother if they follow the Harrington Doctrine and make every possible effort to avoid the appearance of being a Conquistador.

Relax wrote:After SL breaks, we are looking at a several year break with intelligence gathering being the main thrust as one tries to determine who is just an SL stooge, and who is a MALIGN world....

Creating a situation where the flow of information is more critical than combat power. Where the Navy gets involved at all, it will need couriers, scouts, and CLACs full of an improved version of Haven's Recon-LAC (as used at Trevor's Star in War of Honor.)

Not much role for SDs there, and lots of time to upgrade the SD force -- new-build or conversion.

JohnRoth wrote:Fleet train (ammo, supply, etc.) ships are always supplied with military hyper generators, particle shields and inertial compensators exactly so they can keep up. This is spelled out somewhere in the books.

Yep, fleet train needs to be upgraded to Streak Drive if you're going to upgrade to Streak Drive across the board. Nobody has asserted any opinion on where they should be prioritized. IMHO, they should be ahead of SDs and possible even ahead of battle cruisers.

JohnRoth wrote:Wrong. The advanced inertial compensator is the reason why Manticoran SDs are as big as they are with the acceleration figures they have. A regular mil-spec inertial compensator on a ship that size would have truly pitiful acceleration.

A quick look at House of Steel and comparing the Sphinx and Gryphon class SDs (old compensators) with the Medusa and Invictus class pod SDs will show you the difference.

Medusa and Invictus SD(P)s would be big no matter how efficient their compensators are. The size increase has far more to do with combat capability than it does tactical speed.

The improved compensator gave them both combat capability and acceleration but combat capability is the trump card.

I wonder if Haven will have time to upgrade their production facilities before the streak drive is copied? There is going to be a period of time when there is no streak drive to install, but there will be empty building slips to work on. Will Haven use the opportunity to improve those slips to Manticoran standards or will they remain as they are now?

Even if Manticor had a schematic for a streak drive in hand at this moment, I can not see them building a production model in less than 2 years, with another year for testing. Only then will they need to worry about whether to upgrade older models or concentrate on new building.

Relax wrote:Totally contrived conversational starter as the timing is completely bollixed up. I tried to divert the convo into this aspect to get a smidgeon of reality into the conversation, but clearly this aspect is still ignored. Much better to argue over definition minutia shaving without a base in sequential logic.

So far: This conversation:

Assumes: SL is still around in 2+ years. It won't be. GA already has enough ships to eliminate all ships in known space if they chose to do so.

Assumes: GA can't build streak hyperdrive in Haven yards and MUST be done at Manticore. Talk about Manticore myopic glasses. R&D? Theory; sure, but prototyping? Nope.

Assumes: SL worlds have MDM.
-- Cataphract pods are useless for defensive purposes against any GA force. Anyone thinks otherwise, I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you and I have heard the London Bridge is for sale. I have the deed, right here(searches under my...)

Only reason GA will really want Streak in the foreseeable near future is to patrol ex SL worlds that broke away with no defenses, but are not trusted/given MDM pods/Moriarity for defense and therefore their defense requires ships and pods under GA control. Of course these ships will all be 2nd rate ships resigned to backwater duties.

After SL breaks, we are looking at a several year break with intelligence gathering being the main thrust as one tries to determine who is just an SL stooge, and who is a MALIGN world. Unless of course there will not be giant battles in the HV upcoming with thousands of ships. Well, I think we can guarantee this will not be true, as one thing DW/MWW/RFC most certainly does well is think BIG. To get these thousands of ships built, requires a lot of time.

I think I agree with Relax on this post. Frankly, there is nothing in the current SLN inventory that can't be countered with Nikes or Sag Cs.

I also agree that the main thrust will be intel gathering after the League breaks.

That being said, GA navies do need to gear up for the confrontation with the Alignment. What that means is building as many of the most tecnologically advanced ships as possible, includung putting streaks in new build SDPs if that turns out practical.

The nasty thing about the Alignment threat is the the basic perameters of the threat are still unknown. Manticore knows that they are sneaky, nasty, have previously unknown drive tech and that their goal is to engineer the genetic future of humanity. The GA does not know the size of the Alignment's navy except by inference, the size or location of its industrial plant, or who its potential allies might be.

That makes preparing very difficult. All that GA can do is prepare for the worst and hope that it is sufficient. And oh yes, hope that our favorite spy/team of Cachet/Zilwiki can come up with more enlightening information.

Don

Weird Harold wrote:PS: If you want me to acknowledge the content of your posts, try deleting all the personal attacks and address the content of mine.

1) the only post where i did a true personal attack was the last one.
2) i addressed your points in just about every post, multiple times. Yet you refused to acknowledge mine.
3) Despite all that, I still had fun pointing out your flawed logic. And i really want to start up again, but i will hold by what i said earlier... If you want to debate it more we can do it in PMs

To crewdude or anyone else... Unless your having fun like i was, just let it go. He refuses to see anything he doesn't want to and then tries to blame you for his blindness.

PS... If you want to start up a different flame war however, go back and quote all those "Personal attacks" i supposedly said I would love to hijack the thread more over that subject and waste more time.

Chyort wrote:2) i addressed your points in just about every post, multiple times. Yet you refused to acknowledge mine.

As far as I could tell your only "point" was, "SDs are the biggest hammer in the toolbox and every problem looks like a nail."

Go back and count the times you called me a troll.

Weird Harold wrote:

Chyort wrote:2) i addressed your points in just about every post, multiple times. Yet you refused to acknowledge mine.

As far as I could tell your only "point" was, "SDs are the biggest hammer in the toolbox and every problem looks like a nail."

Go back and count the times you called me a troll.

Shows that you weren't reading my posts

And i seem to recall saying i wasn't sure if you were trolling or not a few times, and then i decided you were.

That however is not a personal attack.

Is calling a rose, a rose, a Personal attack?
Is saying the sky is blue a Personal attack?

You were acting like a troll, and so after a half dozen or more posts i called it as i saw it. There was nothing Personal about it.

Once again your logic is flawed.

For a laugh feel free to google steve hughes Offended btw, it is a remarkably good fit for the current situation.

"A fanatic is one who cannot change his mind and will not change the subject."
Winston Churchill

Minor point for consideration, if big ships are the best, why is the American navy not comprised solely of aircraft carriers?

Waiting for more amusement...