Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army

n7axw wrote:I normally tend to be a sucker for moral arguments. But a nations first moral responsibility is for its own people. In the case of SEM, it must secure itself by first breaking up the League and then preparing for the confrontation with the Alignment. Any allocation of resourses must be directed to the furtherance of these twin goals.

If dealing with a situation in the verge - and there will be some - then by all means, step in and do what is needed. But otherwise, not so fast... The verge is so vast that the GA's resourses could literally be absorbed when those revolts against OFS start breaking out. There is going to have to be some prioritizing and there are going to be folks out there whom the GA are not going to be able to help and still keep their eye on the ball.

Don

Shadow of Freedom, Chapter 28 wrote:"Assuming Ankenbrandt really is telling us the truth and not a plant who's somehow found a way to fool even a treecat when he lies, I'm afraid it is our hexapuma, Admiral," O'Shaughnessy said thoughtfully. ... "This is incredibly clever on someone's part. The potential consequences if dozens of planetary resistance movements get slaughtered when they believe --- completely accurately as far as they know --- the Star Kingdom's promised to support them..."

JohnRoth wrote:

n7axw wrote:I normally tend to be a sucker for moral arguments. But a nations first moral responsibility is for its own people. In the case of SEM, it must secure itself by first breaking up the League and then preparing for the confrontation with the Alignment. Any allocation of resourses must be directed to the furtherance of these twin goals.

If dealing with a situation in the verge - and there will be some - then by all means, step in and do what is needed. But otherwise, not so fast... The verge is so vast that the GA's resourses could literally be absorbed when those revolts against OFS start breaking out. There is going to have to be some prioritizing and there are going to be folks out there whom the GA are not going to be able to help and still keep their eye on the ball.

Don

Shadow of Freedom, Chapter 28 wrote:"Assuming Ankenbrandt really is telling us the truth and not a plant who's somehow found a way to fool even a treecat when he lies, I'm afraid it is our hexapuma, Admiral," O'Shaughnessy said thoughtfully. ... "This is incredibly clever on someone's part. The potential consequences if dozens of planetary resistance movements get slaughtered when they believe --- completely accurately as far as they know --- the Star Kingdom's promised to support them..."

And the following discussion.

As I said earlier, those chips weren't issued by the Star Empire, but they're going to have to be cashed by it if they don't want their reputation for making good on their word to be trashed big time.

JohnRoth wrote:

n7axw wrote:I normally tend to be a sucker for moral arguments. But a nations first moral responsibility is for its own people. In the case of SEM, it must secure itself by first breaking up the League and then preparing for the confrontation with the Alignment. Any allocation of resourses must be directed to the furtherance of these twin goals.

If dealing with a situation in the verge - and there will be some - then by all means, step in and do what is needed. But otherwise, not so fast... The verge is so vast that the GA's resourses could literally be absorbed when those revolts against OFS start breaking out. There is going to have to be some prioritizing and there are going to be folks out there whom the GA are not going to be able to help and still keep their eye on the ball.

Don

Shadow of Freedom, Chapter 28 wrote:"Assuming Ankenbrandt really is telling us the truth and not a plant who's somehow found a way to fool even a treecat when he lies, I'm afraid it is our hexapuma, Admiral," O'Shaughnessy said thoughtfully. ... "This is incredibly clever on someone's part. The potential consequences if dozens of planetary resistance movements get slaughtered when they believe --- completely accurately as far as they know --- the Star Kingdom's promised to support them..."

And the following discussion.

As I said earlier, those chips weren't issued by the Star Empire, but they're going to have to be cashed by it if they don't want their reputation for making good on their word to be trashed big time.

hanuman wrote:

n7axw wrote:I normally tend to be a sucker for moral arguments. But a nations first moral responsibility is for its own people. In the case of SEM, it must secure itself by first breaking up the League and then preparing for the confrontation with the Alignment. Any allocation of resourses must be directed to the furtherance of these twin goals.

If dealing with a situation in the verge - and there will be some - then by all means, step in and do what is needed. But otherwise, not so fast... The verge is so vast that the GA's resourses could literally be absorbed when those revolts against OFS start breaking out. There is going to have to be some prioritizing and there are going to be folks out there whom the GA are not going to be able to help and still keep their eye on the ball.

Don

Yes, my argument is moralistic to some extent, but that's exactly the point of the Harrington Doctrine, isn't it? Once the League has collapsed into however many successor states, the GA will need to offer something better to induce those successor states to ally themselves with the GA (or at least, to maintain friendly relations with it).

Let's leave the Core and Shell worlds aside for now, since we're essentially in agreement about them. The size of their population, their industrial capacity, and their military and technological potential make it absolutely imperative that the GA establishes good relations with them; their entrenched political traditions make it likely that they'll be able to maintain local stability, for the most part.

But the Protectorates and the Verge planets ARE important as well. A great number of those worlds are relatively close to the Haven Sector and the Talbott Quadrant - the GA will want to prevent any kind of widespread general instability close to its members' borders. Not only will such instability give rise to piracy, but it will also divert GA military forces from far more important deployments.

Moreover, the GA (for now, mostly Manticore, but soon also Haven and the others) conduct a great deal of its trade in the Verge and the Protectorates. Once again, general instability will lead to a surge in piracy, and will force the GA to divert military forces from elsewhere.

Far more importantly, moral behaviour isn't just some froofraa with no practical, real-world implications. Let's sketch a likely hypothetical scenario. The GA has just come through a war with the League - a war that, from the GA's side, was waged precisely because of the League's immoral neo-colonial imperialism. The League itself is gone, replaced by hundreds of successor states. Yes, many of them are stable, strong former Core and Shell worlds, and the GA is actively seeking to establish itself as a trustworthy partner of any potential allies among those former Core and Shell worlds.

But, as members of the League, those potential allies in the former Core and Shell regions have just had their arses handed to them by the GA. They don't as yet trust the GA, and in most cases there is a certain amount of fear OF the GA. The GA needs to dispel that fear and distrust, and the best way to do that is to demonstrate that it is NOT the League, that its way of doing things are far better, far more moral than that of the League, that the League's behaviour OUT IN THE PROTECTORATES was indeed immoral and unacceptable.

That is why it will be imperative for the GA to take an active role in the Protectorates and the Verge - to prevent civil conflict, to extend developmental aid, to assist where requested to do so in maintaining law and order, to help establish strong, stable local governments, to suppress piracy. The GA will need to prove that its way is better than the League's way, if it will have any chance whatsoever of implementing the Harrington Doctrine successfully.

It is a very moral position, but one that is grounded in practical necessity, I think.

Still, you're quite right regarding how vast the Verge and the Protectorates are. It will be impossible for the GA to become involved EVERYWHERE in those regions and still focus on what is truly important - the ongoing confrontation with the Alignment.

Although diplomacy and politics are quite often about perceptions and appearances, as I wrote above, diplomats and politicians are also eminently realistic creatures (or they should be, at least). I don't expect that the leaders of the League's successor states in the former Core and Shell regions will actually expect the GA to get involved everywhere in the outer regions. I don't think that will be necessary, and I think they'll be likely to understand that such an undertaking will be quite simply impossible.

What I do think is that they'll be looking at how the GA acts in those areas of the outer regions that are relatively close to its members' own borders, and those that are relatively close to the wormhole network's various termini, because that is where the GA will be most active commercially.

n7axw wrote:I certainly am not opposed to doing what can be done productively in the Verge. But those Firebrand inspired rebellions could turn into a nasty problem. The whole thing could be a resourse sink and perception or not, the GA has to keep its eye on the main show which is breaking up the League and doing what it can to prepare for the conflict with the Alignment.

My basic point is this... Its not that I'm opposed to helping in the verge, but rather that there has to be some pretty strong prioritizing that honors the GAs basic goals as well as expanding its commercial interest. Inevitably there are going to be situations out there worthy of attention that will be just beyond the GA's reach. Heavy emphasis should be placed on diplomacy and arbitration rather than assuming that every problem is a nail to be hammered with a squadron of Sag-Cs.

Don

hanuman wrote:

n7axw wrote:I certainly am not opposed to doing what can be done productively in the Verge. But those Firebrand inspired rebellions could turn into a nasty problem. The whole thing could be a resourse sink and perception or not, the GA has to keep its eye on the main show which is breaking up the League and doing what it can to prepare for the conflict with the Alignment.

My basic point is this... Its not that I'm opposed to helping in the verge, but rather that there has to be some pretty strong prioritizing that honors the GAs basic goals as well as expanding its commercial interest. Inevitably there are going to be situations out there worthy of attention that will be just beyond the GA's reach. Heavy emphasis should be placed on diplomacy and arbitration rather than assuming that every problem is a nail to be hammered with a squadron of Sag-Cs.

Don

Once again, I absolutely agree with what you wrote, especially regarding the use of arbitration and diplomacy, but that just makes it all the more imperative that the GA establishes a reputation for keeping its promises.

It will need the assistance and cooperation of those strong, stable former Core and Shell worlds (or at least some of them), because it simply does not have enough resources to do everything that needs doing in the aftermath of the League's collapse all by itself.

Hutch wrote:Good discussion above.

I would add that while there are MAlign-ment fostered rebellions out there, they may be somewhat limited in scope.

If you're trying to convice the New Ghana Liberation Movement to rebel promising Manty aid, and they are ~45 light years from the Talbott sector, then the possiblity will be real.

If you're trying to convince the Ottoman Radical Union of this, and they are on the other side of known space, 800LY from Manticore and 500+ from Talbott and they see a Manty ship maybe once every couple of years....they are unlikely to be convinced that 'help' is on the way.

So the Firebrand and other rebellions are likely to be localized around the Talbott cluster, and limited in mumber.

Which doesn't mean a lot of other systems all over the Verge and Protectorates aren't going to burst into flames once the SL (and OFS/FF) are suddenly less powerful than they appear--which will lead to death and destruction the GA can't do anything about (and would be foolish to try).

But those that are know about, they'll try to help. Mike, Estelle and Augustus have so promised in Shadows of Freedom--and they tend to live up to their promises.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Dafmeister wrote:

Hutch wrote:Good discussion above.

I would add that while there are MAlign-ment fostered rebellions out there, they may be somewhat limited in scope.

If you're trying to convice the New Ghana Liberation Movement to rebel promising Manty aid, and they are ~45 light years from the Talbott sector, then the possiblity will be real.

If you're trying to convince the Ottoman Radical Union of this, and they are on the other side of known space, 800LY from Manticore and 500+ from Talbott and they see a Manty ship maybe once every couple of years....they are unlikely to be convinced that 'help' is on the way.

So the Firebrand and other rebellions are likely to be localized around the Talbott cluster, and limited in mumber.

Which doesn't mean a lot of other systems all over the Verge and Protectorates aren't going to burst into flames once the SL (and OFS/FF) are suddenly less powerful than they appear--which will lead to death and destruction the GA can't do anything about (and would be foolish to try).

But those that are know about, they'll try to help. Mike, Estelle and Augustus have so promised in Shadows of Freedom--and they tend to live up to their promises.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

A very reasonable point. I have one thing to say in rebuttal:

Desperation breeds credulity.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Hanuman,

This all well and good, but we need to discriminate between the verge at large which are still independent star states, and the OFS protectorates, where Firebrand apparently spent most of his time stirring up trouble.

Verge non-SL related problems aren't the GA's responsibility in the first place at this time, so many disasters are just going to have to wait.

Firebrand doesn't appear to be working all the protectorates, so I'd start winnowing it down by looking at the worst cases as being the most likely to look at the soonest and respond.

The RMN and the GA have a few thousand ships and there are only several hundred protectorates total, so if 10-20% are meltdown cases requiring immediate attention, they could be handled far quicker than some assume, since only a couple ships might be needed immediately, with large ground components for civil stabilization etc coming ASAP.

Again given the far larger crews of the RHN, they'll probably be the majority of the 'first responders' to take advantage of their larger average marine components, while also being a more neutral party than the RMN.

But I'd be using all those wartime db's to alert all the protectorate SEM embassies what's going on, and quietly have deep agents and or friends post warnings about false provocateur agents etc on blogs.

We should see some discussion by Elisabeth, Eloise, and the rest of the GA early in the next book, since the news should have already reached Manticore, given the wormhole network, the GA's ability to respond may be far faster than the MAlign realized, since they didn't ever think the GA would happen.

I suspect one of the best ways to deal with this is to go public and announce the SEM has discovered this MAlign plot to ruin its reputation soon before it can work, but that if notified it will respond, but wants people to understand it has never sought or encouraged such rebellions however sympathetic and understanding it might be, as indicated by the text discussions, but doubt RFC will make it that easy.

Governor Matsuko or Mike might be the first to make such a statement after possible discoveries on Mesa; something along the lines of "please think about when and why you were contacted, and regardless of whatever claims he made of being an agent of the SEM, "Firebrand" doesn't represent the SEM, and put a bounty on his head for his various detailed crimes against the SEM etc.

L