What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?

crewdude48 wrote:Strategically, there is basically no difference where you base your bombers, so there is no need to move them around quickly. Anything that happens between when they begin the attack run and when they return to base is tactical, not strategic, and that is what the supersonic ability was designed for. Where you base your SDs, on the other hand makes a big difference strategically.

Tenshinai wrote:I say again, anyone that can "ok" the addition of Keyhole platforms as a standard outfit(which entails putting some of the most expensive parts in high concentration outside the protection of the ship) isn´t going to even blink at a larger hyper generator UNLESS it is EXTREMELY expensive(either in material or in time), and the probability for that is quite small.

Weird Harold wrote:

Tenshinai wrote:I say again, anyone that can "ok" the addition of Keyhole platforms as a standard outfit(which entails putting some of the most expensive parts in high concentration outside the protection of the ship) isn´t going to even blink at a larger hyper generator UNLESS it is EXTREMELY expensive(either in material or in time), and the probability for that is quite small.

Keyhole provides an increase in offensive and defensive capability. It saves lives in a direct and unequivocal way.

The Streak Drive doesn't offer any direct combat advantage and provides a minimal increase in capability to ships that seldom move with any urgency over distances where the 40% speed advantage would make a significant difference.

The major advantage conferred by a Streak Drive is faster information flow -- scouts and couriers -- rather than changing the date of a battle that will take place whenever the SDs arrive.

Tenshinai wrote:

n7axw wrote:One has to do with retrofitting current SDPs with the streak drive.

Everyone is essentially saying that retrofitting sounds more or less unlikely.

n7axw wrote:The other subject has to do with new build. Harold's logic makes sense

No it doesn´t. He is saying that the monetary pricetag of the drive would be a reason not to build it.

I say again, anyone that can "ok" the addition of Keyhole platforms as a standard outfit(which entails putting some of the most expensive parts in high concentration outside the protection of the ship) isn´t going to even blink at a larger hyper generator UNLESS it is EXTREMELY expensive(either in material or in time), and the probability for that is quite small.

Weird Harold wrote:

Castenea wrote:So you use an even worse example? There are several reasons why there are no supersonic heavy bombers today, but the key is probably this quote: "Given the sharply reduced range of aircraft at supersonic speed I'm at a loss to see how the B-1A's supersonic abilities can be classified as strategic mobility."

Given how they are used tactically what is the purpose of increasing the speed at which a heavy bomber gets from base to target, when once over target, loiter time is a primary consideration?

The B1-A was NOT designed or intended as a tactical bomber. It was designed and intended as a replacement for the B52 as the primary Nuclear Bomber.

Bombers as a rule do NOT loiter over a target, they get in, drop their bombs and depart. The only "bomber" that needs to loiter in the area (not over the target) is a Close Air Support mission, and the only reason Heavy Bombers can perform CAS missions is precision munitions like JDAM.

Supersonic aircraft are NOT limited to short sprints; The Concorde flew the majority of the over-ocean portions of its routes at a sustained Mach 2.2 and the SR-71 flew most of its missions at Mach 3+. The Tu-160 is capable of 2000 Km at mach 1.5, according to Wikipedia.

Vince wrote:That's the Grand Alliance viewpoint, which you all seem to share. And it is a perfectly valid viewpoint. But my point of view is that:

We, as readers, know that the streak drive can be used to safely travel in both the iota and kappa bands of hyperspace, and it imposes either a negligible or no additional risk other than the normal risks associated with traveling in hyperspace.

Here's how we know that:

Mission of Honor, Chapter 38 wrote:The "private yacht" was about the size of most navies' battlecruisers, and almost as heavily armed. Which didn't prevent it from being one of the most luxuriously appointed vessels in the galaxy... as well as one of the fastest. It had made the passage from the Mesa System forty percent more rapidly than anyone else's ship could have managed it.
Albrecht Detweiler reflected on exactly what that implied as he stood to one side on what would have been the flag deck aboard an actual warship and watched the enormous space station, gleaming in the reflected light of the F6 star called Darius, growing larger on the visual displays as MANS Genesis approached it. The station--known officially as Darius Prime orbited the planet Gamma, Darius' only habitable world, and at the moment, it was over Gamma's night side, just approaching terminator. The planetary surface below it sparkled with lines and beads of light, and their were four other stations to keep it company, although none of them were remotely the same size as Manticore's Hephaestus or Vulcan.

***Snip***

"We'll be docking with the station in about thirty-five minutes, Sir," Genesis' captain told him.
"Thank you," Detwieler replied, suppressing the urge to smile. Hayden Milne had been his yacht's skipper for over three T-years, during which time he'd been firmly trained to never--ever-- refer to him by name. He'd been simply "Sir" to every member of the crew for as long as anyone could remember, and Detweiler's temptation to smile faded as he thought about that. He was doomed to stay in the shadows for at least a while longer, after all.

***Snip***

"I suppose I should wander back to my quarters and tell my wife," he continued out loud.
"Of course, Sir."
Detweiler nodded to the captain, then turned and headed for the lift, followed even here by Heinrich Stabolis, his enhanced bodyguard.

***Snip traveling in the lift***

... They walked down the wide, tastefully decorated passageway to Dewiler's private suite, and he pressed the admittance button himself.
"Yes?" a pleasant soprano voice said after a moment.
"It's me, Evie," he said. "Time to go in about thirty minutes."
"Then I should assume Heinrich's managed to get you down here without any gravy on your shirt?"
The door opened, and Evelina Detweiler looked out at her husband. ......

***Snip description of Evelina's bodyguard***

"No," Albrecht said no, mildly, "I not only manged not to spill the gravy, but I've actually had two cups of coffee without dribbling any of it down my chin."
"I am impressed," Evelina told him with a chuckle, then stood back to let him through the doorway. He smiled and touched her lightly on the cheek. The Long-Range Planning Board had known what it was doing when it paired the two of them, he thought. Sometimes the LRPB's choices resulted in pairings that couldn't stand each other. Officially, that didn't happen, of course, but unofficially everyone knew it did. Fortunately, mistakes like that could usually be fixed, and in the case of an alpha line pairing like any of the Detwiler, the Board's members put special effort into trying to pick compatibles.
"Just let me change my jacket," he told her.
"Fine. But not the red one," she said firmly.
"I like the red on," he protested.
"I know you do, dear." She shuddered. "On the other hand, I'm still hoping the can do something about your taste in clothing in our grandchildren."

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

The fact that MANS Genesis "had made the passage from the Mesa System forty percent more rapidly than anyone else's ship could have managed it" indicates it was using the streak drive to travel in the iota or kappa bands of hyperspace.

Would the Mesan Alignment* let Albrecht Detweiler travel in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

Would Albrecht Detweiler, who from all we have seen of his family life appears to love his wife, let Evelina travel in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

Would Evelina Detweiler, who from all we have seen of his family life appears to love her husband, let Albrecht travel in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

Would Albrecht Detweiler's sons (clones), who seem to have a normal family relationship with him and Evelina, let Albrecht travel with Evelina in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

* Since the center of the Mesan Alignment is the Detweilers, particularly Albrecht, would Albrecht Detweiler, who from all we have seen of him and his recognition of how things really are (minus his blind spot of genetic supremacy must rule and rub Beowulf's nose in it), let himself travel in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands if it was more risky than regular hyperspace travel?

I think the answers to all those questions is:

No, traveling in hyperspace using the streak drive to utilize the iota and kappa bands is NOT more risky than regular hyperspace travel.

And, it allows for greater strategic mobility and reach (as well as flexibility in deployments--more good options are better).

And that's my point of view, as a reader, on why eventually the Grand Alliance will have streak drives on board its SD(P)s, either designed in as new construction or refitted to existing units.

Weird Harold wrote:The B1-A was NOT designed or intended as a tactical bomber

Weird Harold wrote:Bombers as a rule do NOT loiter over a target, they get in, drop their bombs and depart. The only "bomber" that needs to loiter in the area (not over the target) is a Close Air Support mission, and the only reason Heavy Bombers can perform CAS missions is precision munitions like JDAM.

Weird Harold wrote:Supersonic aircraft are NOT limited to short sprints; The Concorde flew the majority of the over-ocean portions of its routes at a sustained Mach 2.2 and the SR-71 flew most of its missions at Mach 3+. The Tu-160 is capable of 2000 Km at mach 1.5, according to Wikipedia.

Weird Harold wrote:The Streak Drive doesn't offer any direct combat advantage

Weird Harold wrote:Keyhole provides an increase in offensive and defensive capability. It saves lives in a direct and unequivocal way.

Weird Harold wrote:Add in the minor details that

Weird Harold wrote:"Mobility" is almost always a consideration in such decisions -- my contention is that it is NOT a primary consideration.

Tenshinai wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:The Streak Drive doesn't offer any direct combat advantage

Yeah, it´s MORE important than that.

Weird Harold wrote:
Not for a ship type that is NOT used as a rapid response force.

In response to an attack in another star system, SDs are used to take a system back, not to keep it from being taken. They are used to attack or defend. They're placed to defend high value systems or are sent to attack heavily defended systems.

The don't need a streak drive to defend the system they're sitting in, and the battle can't start until they get there no matter how fast they travel; it's not as if they will miss an appointment if it takes them a little longer to get there.

SDs aren't used to speed ahead of a fleet and return with information for planning an attack, they aren't used for commerce raiding, so just what is it that SDs do that requires faster Hyper Speed?

I don't dispute that streak drive would be nice-to-have but I really, really, really don't see where it is a necessary attribute for Super-dreadnaughts. Why does it make a difference how fast you get to a system that doesn't know you're coming to attack them?

I don't even dispute that Streak Drives will eventually be put into SD(P) -- one or two build cycles down the road, depending on how fast a GA Streak Drive can be made operational. I do NOT think that SDs are or should be first on the list because they gain the least advantage from faster hyper-speeds.

When missiles start flying, a Streak Drive does absolutely nothing to make your ship more deadly nor does it enable you to defend it better. The combat capability of any ship will not be enhanced by faster hyper-speeds -- it might be adversely affected by secondary effects like lots magazine space, but it won't be enhanced except, indirectly, in very rare circumstances.

I do NOT see where the cost of replacing an existing SD is justified by the sole addition of Streak Drive capability. If you're building more SDs or replacing an older SD with a more combat capable SD (replacing tubes with pods, for example) and you have a streak drive ready for deployment, there's no reason not to install it. There is every reason to NOT build a new SD(P) simply because the old model doesn't have a Streak Drive.

IOW, Streak drive by itself does not justify the expense of new-build SDs. It doesn't even justify new-builds of smaller types except for couriers and scouts -- possibly including a fast class of scouting CLACs.

Fortunately, smaller types are easier to retrofit because they have less armor and coffer-damming, so new-builds aren't as necessary.