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Disproportionate Casualties
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by Darman
» Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:55 am
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Darman
Posts: 249
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So, I've been reading a lot about WW1 casualties (I'm applying for a one-year position teaching WW1 history at a high school and I have this seemingly brilliant idea that I'm getting a bit bogged down in the research), and it appears that at least in Britain, the officers (and thus the middle and upper classes) are incurring vastly higher casualty rates than the rest of the army. Is there a similar thing happening to Charis, perhaps where the middle and upper classes are contributing manpower in the form of educated officers, and they are suffering disproportionately as a result? Or is this a much more republican army where men are promoted on merit only and thus the upper and middle classes aren't going to be contributing more officers, and thus incur fewer casualties? Or are Charisian junior officers simply more wary and "street-smart" than their British counterparts?
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by Randomiser
» Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:49 am
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Randomiser
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There are at least 2 interesting areas tied up together in your question.
Firstly, on the whole, it's not Carisians whom we have seen attempting to lead formed troops to attack prepared defences manned by troops with high rate of fire weapons. The Charisians have mainly moved to fairly modern distributed assault, leapfrog and cover tactics with fire support, insignia have been darkened and the distinction in officers' uniforms diminished. They are not refighting the Western front and I would expect officer casualties to be correspondingly lighter. The various Church armies however, .... And the EoC Scout snipers are deliberately targeting their much more exposed officers and NCOs. Secondly, we haven't concentrated on the lower field unit scale in a whole lot of actions, so we don't know a whole lot about the ordinary field grade officers. Clearly there is a history of aristocratic military service on Safehold, and presumably, all these upper crust higher officers must get at least some experience at lower levels as young men before being promoted. Secondary education usually costs money on Safehold so will be concentrated among the middle and upper classes, so I suspect that officers are traditionally upper or middle class. Charis had a more mobile society even before the war, so there may be less of that there. Also they are running much larger forces than ever before and that may have loosened things up a bit. I suspect it is the Church side which may find itself with a dismaying casualty rate among 'young chaps from good families' |
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by Lazalarlives
» Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:42 am
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Lazalarlives
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Darman,
The only textev we have about officer entry that I can recall is about the midshipmen - specifically young Hektor. His parents moved him into the program at an early age - the implication is that they bought it for him. His early aspirations were to work up to a lieutenancy or maybe become a captain on a small ship - the higher ranks required sponsors, even in a navy as enlightened as Charis'. While every officer in the navy (and marines) had to do their 'internship', only the best-connected or wealthiest had a real chance to climb - and then only when capacity was tied in. In Chisholm, the army is fervently anti-noble because of its roots and history. It is actually harder for the scion of an aristocratic family to rise into command - they have to be, pardon the phrase, 'politically sound' regarding the throne. The man who made it so, Charleyn's uncle, did this with an eye to keeping the army out of any coup attempts. In fact, he did such a good job of it that the COGA conspirators didn't think even HE could use it that way after kidnapping Charleyn - so they decided she had to die. Anyhow, long story short - the middle class of Chisholm and the younger scions of Charis are the main source of officers we have textev of, with the merchant class of Charis gaining on its nobles in terms of representation. The push to put leadership down to the squad level will, as pointed out, insulate these young men. So will binoculars, good maps, and dispersed tactical formations. Leaders are moving a little back of the line, directing instead of acting as a spear point. Good recon means the CO can have 'eyes on' without the literal meaning being true. I agree with Randomizer, though, that the COGA forces have (and will) suffer badly. And those ranks - especially when/if the Harchongese come to bear - will take a horrible beating. Probably on line with the Chinese forces when they entered the Korean conflict. Maybe even worse. Just my two bits. Dave |
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by Ishkandar
» Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:55 pm
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Ishkandar
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Darman,
From what little I know, the officer casualties of WW1 were because field officers have to "go over the top" in trench warfare and into massed machineguns ! Officers led from the front in those battles !! A further telling point is a tale I read of an unpopular officer who begged his men not to shoot him in the back but, rather, allow the enemy to shoot him in the front !! Compare and contrast this with US troops fragging their unpopular officers during the later days of the Vietnam war !! Something similar might also happen to unpopular officers in the Safeholdian wars !!! A second point is that the war on Safehold is a rather "mobile" war, i.e. not one stuck between two or more lines of trenches !! In "mobile" warfare, officers have a better chance of directing the fight from relative safety, although they are not necessarily safe by any means !! A third point is that artillery is no respecter of rank !! A shell can kill officers just as easily as other ranks !! I hope this makes sense to you !! |
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by Darman
» Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:31 pm
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Darman
Posts: 249
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Oh I completely understand many of the differences between the way the two armies are fighting. My curiosity lay more along the lines of whether or not the Imperial Charisian Army recruited its officers from the upper or middle classes (it was mentioned above that the Chisolmian heritage of the ICA would imply more common-born officers), and whether or not these officers were imbued with a sense that in order to fulfill their duty they had to volunteer for the hazardous duties they expected of their men, that they must lead from the front, that there is no other way for an officer to inspire and lead his men than by his own example, his own bravery, his own coolness under fire. Yes, when fighting on the defensive its a little more difficult, but young officers champing at the bit aren't likely to squash their own sense of initiative and a strategic or even tactical defensive posture may be punctuated by small counter-attacks or raids. I've not seen mention of these sorts of things but to be honest they are what I'd expect even an army under virtual siege to do.
My understanding of British officers even on the Northwest Frontier in India was that they led from the front as often as possible, part of the reason to transfer to a Punjab Frontier Force/Northwest Frontier-stationed unit was the possibility of seeing action. As an example, Winston Churchill volunteered for active service in several different capacities because garrison duties in Southern India were boring and were never going to allow a man to develop any sort of a reputation as a fighter. Granted, quite a bit of his experience came as a correspondent rather than soldier. |
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by Ishkandar
» Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:14 pm
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Ishkandar
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Most of the time, it's not the class that officers were recruited from but their ability to lead men and their experience and knowledge of war that counts. There were just as many good upper and middle class officers as those who "rose from the ranks". Conversely, there were also just as many bad ones, too. The main point is whether the officers rose through merit or through "connections" !! The Imperial German Army recruited them mainly from the upper and middle classes but their officers rose through merit !!
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by Darman
» Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:37 am
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Darman
Posts: 249
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My understanding of the British Army even up until the Great War was that it was virtually impossible for a junior officer (subaltern) to even live off his salary. The expenses he was expected to undertake were significantly more than the amount he would make, and for some regiments this was a serious consideration, since their average messing costs were higher than for other regiments. In general cavalry regiments had the highest costs associated with them and infantry regiments the least. The older or more prestigious a regiment was the higher the costs expected to be met by a junior officer would be. |
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by Darman
» Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:14 am
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Darman
Posts: 249
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And this thought just occurred to me: the aristocracy of Harchong and Desnair ought to be devastated. Their cavalry and/or officer corps will be virtually eliminated (pretty much exactly like the British were).
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by Thucydides
» Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:05 pm
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Thucydides
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From the Textev and by implication throughout the story, the Charisians are certainly a culture where officers "lead from the front". Even in the Merchant Marine, the ships owners were usually with the ship rather than waiting by the docks for their cargos to arrive from far distant ports.
And the Imperial couple certainly are fine examples of the "Warrior King/Queen" archetype, an example the nobility would certainly take into account when deciding which fashions to emulate. Who would want to appear in the Imperial court without having served in some leadership capacity? No one would take you seriously. Strangely, in our own world the British Royal Family are also examples of warrior Kings and Queens. HRH Queen Elizabeth II served in an auxiliary capacity during WWII, while her father the King was a naval officer who served on a capital ship during the Great War. Her son Prince Andrew was a Royal Navy helicopter pilot and flew behind a British aircraft carrier during the Falkland Islands war towing a huge radar reflector to draw away any missiles aimed at the carrier. Young Prince Harry has served in combat in Afghanistan (currently as an Apache helicopter pilot). Henry V must be smiling somewhere. While this might not be reflected in British society in general, the example of the Royal Family does resonate among the members of Her Majesty's Armed Forces. How this would play out in the story is hard to say. The Imperial forces use mobile warfare and "open" tactics, which make units and men less vulnerable to enemy fire in general, and they are fighting against an enemy who is many generations behind in military tactics and technology, so in general their officers and NCO's should be taking casualties at about the same rate as their men (percentage wise). Inept or incautious leaders will suffer Darwinian selection, so as time passes, casualties among officers and in general should decrease. |
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by Darman
» Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:22 am
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Darman
Posts: 249
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I'm not entirely sure why this would be strange. It has always appeared to me as though RFC has always preferred England's monarchy to any other. And, speaking as an American, if i were to be forced to live under a monarch, England's monarchs ain't all that bad. Mostly for the above-mentioned reason that they all serve their nation in some capacity or another. This is something I always respect in politicians, and the monarchs have one disadvantage over politicians: they don't choose to run for election, they are born into it. Does Charis have any sort of public school system like England did? That would encourage young men to attempt to emulate the heroism of the past, and probably lead to more officer casualties. |
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