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Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:44 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
hanuman wrote:
That's a 4 meter-tall statue on top of an 8 meter-tall pedestal, if I remember correctly.

I'll admit hanuman, that I'm really not sure; what the statue represented grew with each frightened Peep retelling of the Harrington boogeywoman.


hanuman wrote:
:grin: :grin: :grin: By the end of the Peep regime, and ESPECIALLY after she pulled off Operation Hellbreak, they probably thought she was a hundred meters tall, wore a string of Peep skulls around her neck, ate Peep babies for a snack and used their femurs as toothpicks...

cthia wrote:
And don't forget my personal favorite ... 'picked her teeth with light cruisers.'

She probably scratches her back with superdreadnaughts. Longer reach.


****** *

The only human that can return to hell and be thrown a party.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:30 pm

cthia
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The most amazing showing of Honor Harrington, IMHO, was in "Flag in Exile." That sweet summer child was put thru a virtual hell. Shit just kept hitting the fan. She was exhausted. Her exhaustion was exhausted. Then there was a duel with Burdette when she could barely stand. Back aboard ship the Peeps wouldn't even give her nappy time. Poor Honor. If she ever needed to acquire a taste for coffee, it was in "Flag in Exile." Instead, she was mainlining speed.

I can't even remember all that was crapped on her then. You'd think she was into a different definition of 'scatting.'

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by hanuman   » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:11 am

hanuman
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cthia wrote:The most amazing showing of Honor Harrington, IMHO, was in "Flag in Exile." That sweet summer child was put thru a virtual hell. Shit just kept hitting the fan. She was exhausted. Her exhaustion was exhausted. Then there was a duel with Burdette when she could barely stand. Back aboard ship the Peeps wouldn't even give her nappy time. Poor Honor. If she ever needed to acquire a taste for coffee, it was in "Flag in Exile." Instead, she was mainlining speed.

I can't even remember all that was crapped on her then. You'd think she was into a different definition of 'scatting.'


I tend to agree. It was on Grayson, during her exile there, that all the 'ingredients' that made up Honor Harrington were distilled into the amazing all-round beverage she turned into.
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Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by cthia   » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:16 am

cthia
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Okay, "Flag in Exile," I like for so many reasons, as there are soooo many available. But there is something that I don't quite understand.

On Grayson, in "FiE" Wesley gave Honor an entire squadron and promoted her to Admiral. Which meant that in the GSN she was an Admiral but in the RMN she wasn't. I seem to remember passage stating that she reverted back to her RMN rank back on Manticore. Iirc, Manticore didn't recognize her Admiral status. I never quite understood that. If she made Admiral in another Navy, then an Admiral she is. Isn't she? I mean, it's not like the RMN can say to a Grayson "You're only an Admiral in your navy, not ours." So how could the RMN effectively imply it to Honor?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by hanuman   » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:34 am

hanuman
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cthia wrote:Okay, "Flag in Exile," I like for so many reasons, as there are soooo many available. But there is something that I don't quite understand.

On Grayson, in "FiE" Wesley gave Honor an entire squadron and promoted her to Admiral. Which meant that in the GSN she was an Admiral but in the RMN she wasn't. I seem to remember passage stating that she reverted back to her RMN rank back on Manticore. Iirc, Manticore didn't recognize her Admiral status. I never quite understood that. If she made Admiral in another Navy, then an Admiral she is. Isn't she? I mean, it's not like the RMN can say to a Grayson "You're only an Admiral in your navy, not ours." So how could the RMN effectively imply it to Honor?


Politics, politics, and more effing politics.
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Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:34 am

Weird Harold
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cthia wrote:I seem to remember passage stating that she reverted back to her RMN rank back on Manticore. Iirc, Manticore didn't recognize her Admiral status. I never quite understood that. If she made Admiral in another Navy, then an Admiral she is. Isn't she?


It's related to the same concept that Steadholder Harrington and Captain Countess Harrington are "two distinct personages inhabiting one body."

When in acting the Grayson chain of command, Honor was an Admiral; if she was given command of a mixed squadron in a slot allocated to the GSN, she would take command as a GSN Admiral. If the slot was allocated to the RMN, she would (at the time of FiE) take command as a RMN Commodore.

In some ways, it is the same concept as "rank" in an internet forum: Here I'm a "Commodore", at my other home-on-the-web, I'm just an "Opinionated Old Fart," or on another Forum, I'm a "Hero of the Horn."
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by cthia   » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:52 am

cthia
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:I seem to remember passage stating that she reverted back to her RMN rank back on Manticore. Iirc, Manticore didn't recognize her Admiral status. I never quite understood that. If she made Admiral in another Navy, then an Admiral she is. Isn't she?


It's related to the same concept that Steadholder Harrington and Captain Countess Harrington are "two distinct personages inhabiting one body."

When in acting the Grayson chain of command, Honor was an Admiral; if she was given command of a mixed squadron in a slot allocated to the GSN, she would take command as a GSN Admiral. If the slot was allocated to the RMN, she would (at the time of FiE) take command as a RMN Commodore.

In some ways, it is the same concept as "rank" in an internet forum: Here I'm a "Commodore", at my other home-on-the-web, I'm just an "Opinionated Old Fart," or on another Forum, I'm a "Hero of the Horn."

Don't worry Harold; we accept the transfer of all your other cyberspace credit hours. You're an "Opinionated Old Fart" here as well.

****** *

But she wasn't, isn't, acting as a Steadholder persona while in the GSN, only while on Grayson dressed as a Steadholder. She made Admiral as a naval officer, not as a Steadholder. It just seems too complicated when it shouldn't be.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by SWM   » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:36 am

SWM
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If a person with Manticoran citizenship happens to be an Admiral in the Grayson Space Navy and is not a member of the Manticoran Space Navy, she certainly would not be an Admiral of the Manticoran Space Navy. Similarly, just because Honor was an Admiral in the Grayson Space Navy does not mean that she is automatically an Admiral of the Manticoran Space Navy.

Think of it this way: Joe Busy happens to be a member of both the Loyal Order of the Caribou and the Fraternal Brotherhood of the Elk. He happens to hold the rank of Master in the Caribou; that does not automatically mean he is a Master in the Elk. They are different organizations, with their own ranks, rules, and rituals.

When Honor became a Steadholder, she did not automatically become a member of the Manticoran nobility. The Queen granted her the title of Countess, so that she would have status comparable (she thought at the time) comparable to her status in Grayson. But that did not have to happen; it was a deliberate choice by the Queen to acknowledge the service of a worthy subject. Titles, ranks, and awards in foreign states do not automatically accrue equivalent titles, ranks, and awards in your native state.
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Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by hanuman   » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:39 am

hanuman
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cthia wrote:Don't worry Harold; we accept the transfer of all your other cyberspace credit hours. You're an "Opinionated Old Fart" here as well.

****** *

But she wasn't, isn't, acting as a Steadholder persona while in the GSN, only while on Grayson dressed as a Steadholder. She made Admiral as a naval officer, not as a Steadholder. It just seems too complicated when it shouldn't be.


You do realise that giggles are terribly unmanly, don't you?

Like I said, effing politics. When she FINALLY received her admiral stars, Caparelli told her that she would have made Commodore in the RMN long before she was captured and sent to Hades, IF it wasn't for opposition in the Lords.
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Re: Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat
Post by cthia   » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:13 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

SWM wrote:
If a person with Manticoran citizenship happens to be an Admiral in the Grayson Space Navy and is not a member of the Manticoran Space Navy, she certainly would not be an Admiral of the Manticoran Space Navy. Similarly, just because Honor was an Admiral in the Grayson Space Navy does not mean that she is automatically an Admiral of the Manticoran Space Navy.

Think of it this way: Joe Busy happens to be a member of both the Loyal Order of the Caribou and the Fraternal Brotherhood of the Elk. He happens to hold the rank of Master in the Caribou; that does not automatically mean he is a Master in the Elk. They are different organizations, with their own ranks, rules, and rituals.

When Honor became a Steadholder, she did not automatically become a member of the Manticoran nobility. The Queen granted her the title of Countess, so that she would have status comparable (she thought at the time) comparable to her status in Grayson. But that did not have to happen; it was a deliberate choice by the Queen to acknowledge the service of a worthy subject. Titles, ranks, and awards in foreign states do not automatically accrue equivalent titles, ranks, and awards in your native state.

All of your points are well spoken and taken. Definitively, I know you are right. But truthfully, it continues to not sit well with me.

In my frail brain it boils down to this. Always back to this. When an Admiral in another Navy interacts with the RMN, there is never any question of rank, so why should it be for Honor? Intuitively, it seems rank should be rounded up to the highest rank one bears — likeso when Honor was on Hades and pulled rank on Rear Admiral Styles. Styles didn't want to accept her rank either, but an Admiral is as an Admiral does. And no one does Admiral as well.

Is there anything preventing Honor from wearing her GSN uniform at the time? It's not in Honor's nature to be spiteful of course, but she was a scorned woman — somewhat alienated by her own Star Kingdom at the time, and by that wholeass High Ridge. It was as if she had to accept a demotion, for a hard earned, well deserved accomplishment.

If Styles didn't have a legal leg to stand on, then how could the RMN? It would seem that they would appreciate that the GSN did their dirty work for them. Another point — the GSN, being an ally of Manticore, could have taken issue with the RMN not respecting Honor's promotion, absolutely.

Honor wasn't on loan to Grayson. She was actually in Grayson service. Since the RMN allowed Honor to enter GSN service then they would have to allow it wholehog — meaning her accomplishments and promotions, as an officer. In for a penny in for a pound. She wasn't on loan. And even though there are several entities in the one; it is the officer entity that gets promoted in both.

Too complicated. Little wonder so many lawyers were needed to deal with it. Still seems it isn't a clean deal. More of a raw deal for Honor.

Moreover, Honor was the second ranking GSN officer. If the GSN would have had to come to emergency (Case Zulu) assistance to the RMN at the time Honor was the GSN's second ranking Admiral — and High Ridge's government still prevailing — and a freak accident would have killed Wesley, then Honor would have automatically become Fleet Admiral Harrington, de facto. Or if Wesley's death would have occurred in the Endicott system and Honor would have officially become Fleet Admiral GSN, then what? She would still have been recognized as a Commodore? When she should have been the one running the show in the Manty system? Political bollox!

IMHO.

No one does honor to Admiral as Admiral Honor.

Do forgive — couldn't resist.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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