Young and Basilisk station

exiledtoIA wrote:Maybe not. Remember who his father was and the existance of the "North Hollow Files".
It's possible that it could have been turned around to blame the Navy for not having a suitable sized force in Basilisk.
Obviously there was no way for 1 ship to do all that needed to be done so there is no way CPT Young can be held
responsible for the failure of his superiors.

I suspect you're right. In fact, I almost wish it had happened, just so we could enjoy the sight of the Conservative Association turning on Edward Janacek - after all, it was his policies as First Lord that had run the navy's strength in Basilisk down until it couldn't do its job.

There would probably be a few shots at the Liberals, too, for the way they force the weakening of the Act of Annexation. Never mind that the CA opposed it too, pay no attention to the Baron behind the curtain.

Dafmeister wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Young might have been able to get away with it until the peeps plot came to full flower. If Young controls the orbitals of Medusa instead of Honor, there are no Marines between the Medusans and the off world enclaves. No cooperation with Dame Estelle, Sirrus gets away, no case Zulu sent to Home Fleet, the Peeps move in with their fleet and get away with their plot. I don't know how the SKM retrieves the situation, but Young's career would have been toast.

Don

Actually, I don't think it would have been that bad. Remember, the nomad uprising kicked off early.Sirius was actually leaving to tell the PN task force not to come; as it was, with Sirius destroyed, they arrived on the expected schedule and found Home Fleet 'conducting unscheduled maneuvers' in the system. If Young had been in charge when the uprising began, then there would have been a slaughter in the human enclaves and the Medusan cities, but Sirius would almost certainly have got away clean, made her rendevous and aborted the invasion.

So, Young would have failed to prevent a bloodbath on the planet, but he could argue that there was no warning that it was coming. I suspect he would have stamped out the uprising before it ran its course, though probably in a far messier fashion than Honor's marines did - rather than intercepting the natives in a kill box like the valley, he would probably have had to use a mix of kinetic strikes and marine drops, with significantly higher casualties among his own troops and the human and Medusan civilian populations of the planet.

One thing you forgot is the fact that the reason the uprising kicked off early was because the locals shot down the NPA ship. If it hadn't been for Honor being in charge, the NPA still wouldn't have had the manpower to send that vehicle out searching, and the uprising might have held until the scheduled time, and nobody would have called off the Peeps.

crewdude48 wrote:One thing you forgot is the fact that the reason the uprising kicked off early was because the locals shot down the NPA ship. If it hadn't been for Honor being in charge, the NPA still wouldn't have had the manpower to send that vehicle out searching, and the uprising might have held until the scheduled time, and nobody would have called off the Peeps.

Good point. Must read OBS again.

Dafmeister wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:One thing you forgot is the fact that the reason the uprising kicked off early was because the locals shot down the NPA ship. If it hadn't been for Honor being in charge, the NPA still wouldn't have had the manpower to send that vehicle out searching, and the uprising might have held until the scheduled time, and nobody would have called off the Peeps.

Good point. Must read OBS again.

At the point that the uprising kicked off, the Peeps had lost control of the situation. They had doped up the natives on mehoha and the natives went wild. What Honor had accomplished was to throw off the timing and the Peeps were trying to hold off the op until Young got back.

I don't think that Young would have dropped Marines. He didn't have the moral fiber to make that decision. He would have run for home, claiming he needed to bring back the fleet.

Don

n7axw wrote:
At the point that the uprising kicked off, the Peeps had lost control of the situation. They had doped up the natives on mehoha and the natives went wild. What Honor had accomplished was to throw off the timing and the Peeps were trying to hold off the op until Young got back.

I don't think that Young would have dropped Marines. He didn't have the moral fiber to make that decision. He would have run for home, claiming he needed to bring back the fleet.

Don

I have a slightly different view of Young. Yes, he's an abominable coward when faced with anything resembling danger to himself, but in this instance he'd be safe and secure in orbit. The nomads could overrun the planet and they still wouldn't be able to hurt him, which is why I think he'd have no problem dropping the marines (expendable brutes that they are) and bombarding the nomads from orbit.

I tend to see Manticore's aristocracy as very much resembling elements of the old British aristocracy, with Young as an archetype of a very nasty sort of British officer from the days when we ran half the world, the sort who inflicted most of the harm now associated with the Empire. He'll soil his breeches when faced with peer opposition, but he's a colossal bigot with an impenetrable sense of his own superiority and I doubt his bigotry is limited to his views of the Star Kingdom's 'peasants'. He's the sort of man who, when he hears that a 'white man' has been assaulted by, as he'd see it (and please forgive the language), "a piss-poor crowd of bloody niggers!", he'll respond by machine-gunning the whole village.

For a real-life analogue, look up Brigadier-General Reginald Dwyer, or just google the Amritsar Massacre.

Dafmeister wrote:So, Young would have failed to prevent a bloodbath on the planet, but he could argue that there was no warning that it was coming. I suspect he would have stamped out the uprising before it ran its course, though probably in a far messier fashion than Honor's marines did - rather than intercepting the natives in a kill box like the valley, he would probably have had to use a mix of kinetic strikes and marine drops, with significantly higher casualties among his own troops and the human and Medusan civilian populations of the planet.

I could see Young trying to drop responsibility for the uprising on Honor too? "If she'd spent less time interfering with the Star Kingdom's legitimate trading houses, then maybe she'd have noticed things in a time to do something about it!" etc etc

Just ignore the inconvenient details like "Do what?" or the fact that Young likely would've ordered her to stop co-ordinating with the NPA ... Remember, we've always been at war with Eastasia!

I wouldn't put it past him.

If Young had been on station, I can see two variations:

First option (and the more nasty version) the 'Sirus' would have suddenly stopped being a freighter and blown 'Warlock' to pieces for two reason -

1 - To stop Warlock dropping her marines and KEW strikes on the 'upraising' thereby ensuring that locals where slaughtered.
2 - To prevent Warlock (or any other vessel)from getting the word out.

The ship then slips away, after KEW striking the NPA bases, once the PRH task force arrives.

Second option, is ground forces are taken complete by surprise and 'Sirus' goes and makes contact with the task force which then turns up and puts down the 'upraising', also forcing Warlock to yield the system (anyone think Young would hold the line against task force on his own). In the mean time Warlock (i.e. Young) either refuses to put troops on the ground (its a dirt side problem, not something for the Navy to deal with) or waits so long to get involved that the Marines are fighting it out in the city.

Remember that PRH just need a pretext to take the system, by showing that the SKM couldn't police/maintain public safety.

Really, all they should have done was send in a task force to secure control of the system (possible using the 'locals asked for protection' argument i.e. OFS tactics) and then forced the SKM/RMN to back down and pay reparations as part of the 'peace treaty', as we know that Manticore at this time was no way near ready to fight a war.
or just hammered Manticore directly between OBS & HotQ

Garth 2 wrote:If Young had been on station, I can see two variations:

First option (and the more nasty version) the 'Sirus' would have suddenly stopped being a freighter and blown 'Warlock' to pieces for two reason -

1 - To stop Warlock dropping her marines and KEW strikes on the 'upraising' thereby ensuring that locals where slaughtered.
2 - To prevent Warlock (or any other vessel)from getting the word out.

The ship then slips away, after KEW striking the NPA bases, once the PRH task force arrives.

Second option, is ground forces are taken complete by surprise and 'Sirus' goes and makes contact with the task force which then turns up and puts down the 'upraising', also forcing Warlock to yield the system (anyone think Young would hold the line against task force on his own). In the mean time Warlock (i.e. Young) either refuses to put troops on the ground (its a dirt side problem, not something for the Navy to deal with) or waits so long to get involved that the Marines are fighting it out in the city.

Remember that PRH just need a pretext to take the system, by showing that the SKM couldn't police/maintain public safety.

Really, all they should have done was send in a task force to secure control of the system (possible using the 'locals asked for protection' argument i.e. OFS tactics) and then forced the SKM/RMN to back down and pay reparations as part of the 'peace treaty', as we know that Manticore at this time was no way near ready to fight a war.
or just hammered Manticore directly between OBS & HotQ

Sirrus' object in leaving the system wasn't to bring in the taskforce. It was to tell the taskforce the the op had crapped out and to warn them not to show up. When Sirrus was destroyed, the task force did show up and was welcomed by home fleet who had responded to Honor's "Case Zulu."

Don

n7axw wrote:Sirrus' object in leaving the system wasn't to bring in the taskforce. It was to tell the taskforce the the op had crapped out and to warn them not to show up. When Sirrus was destroyed, the task force did show up and was welcomed by home fleet who had responded to Honor's "Case Zulu."

Don

Sirrus was going to stop the invasion because Honor's poking around crapped out the operation. With Cpt Young sitting fat and happy in orbit, the operation would have almost certainly went off with out a hitch. And you know if Cpt Young had stayed, he would have had Honor and Fearless running around the system and she would not have been able to crap out the Havenite's plan.