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Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army

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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Alizon   » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:41 pm

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Duckk wrote:What makes you think that compelling a surrender from orbit would result in "devastating the planet"? As Terekhov so ably demonstrated, you can drop a very precise KEW on any target you want with minimal collateral damage.

Furthermore, as mentioned by David in several posts, the common practice of warfare between civilized nations is that once the attackers control the orbitals, the planet surrenders. Resisting beyond that point is meaningless unless you're deliberately trying to inflate the body count.

Now, there could well be a few occasions where one is dealing with some truly maniacal personality who refuses to surrender even when the situation is hopeless, and the attacker chooses not to inflict casualties from bombardment. Alternatively, one is trying to attack a site which makes bombardment undesirable (for example, capturing a hardened R&D facility on a moon somewhere). In which case, yeah, you probably would call up the Army and stage an assault. But unless there aren't any non-combatants around, or were evacuated beforehand, any opposed invasion is likely going to cause casualties at least as bad as a bombardment would. That being the case, you go right back to putting orbital bombardment back on the table in order to avoid losses to your own troops. There's just no point in trying to resist if you lost the high ground.


Well, you really can't "compel" a planet to surrender from orbit. It may clearly be in the best interests of someone to surrender but you can't actually compel anything from a distance, which is sort of the point.

Yes, I'm sure you can target Kinetic Weapons very precisely but essentially all you're doing is substituting kinetic energy from chemical or nuclear energy and how much energy you need to use is still going to be governed by the target you are trying to destroy. If the target is well defended and strengthened to resist such attacks, the amount of energy needed to reduce it could be very substantial and lead to considerable collateral damage.

Essentially, if you have a structure designed to resist a nuclear explosion, then you're going to need an energy release equivalent to a nuclear explosion to engage that target effectively. While a KEW probably would be a cleaner weapon in comparison to a Nuke, that energy release is still going to damage a lot of things and kill a lot of people, probably people you'd rather not kill.

How do you deal with enemy forces in the field or dispersed throughout major urban areas without devastating the areas surrounding them? Does "precisely target" mean a hypervelocity pebble for every soldier? Do RMN ships carry dedicated mass drivers for just such an event? What would you have to do to defeat a planet which has made substantial preparations to defend against such an attack? If you are using KEW's, what would be the difference between using a weapon of mass destruction and using KEW's to subdue a planet?

Yes, granted most worlds aren't going to take this option and will choose to submit rather than face this possibility, and most planets which don't can effectively be bypassed. But there may well be situations where the aggressor force actually needs the planet itself and the planet is prepared for and chooses to resist.

KEW's have the same problem as nukes. If you really need to depend on them to force a planet to surrender, you really need the planet to either cooperate with you or you need to be prepared to devastate it's surface otherwise the threat that goes along with it's use is relatively minor, sort of like lobbing the occasional cruise missile at people you don't like. People need to believe you will use them as WMD's in order for them to be cowed into submission.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by kzt   » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:51 pm

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Duckk wrote:However, I think that you're underestimating the intelligence gathering and counterinsurgency capabilities available in the Honorverse. This can be seen in several books, such as SoS, SoF, and CoG. If you don't have access to heavy, modern weapons to offset the occupier's heavy, modern weapons, trying to resist the occupation is still a losing proposition. All the resistance movements in those books hinged on having weapons which could fight off powered armor and armored vehicles.

It depends. Sniping at collaborators doesn't require that. Driving a car bomb up to a checkpoint doesn't require this, nor does the approach used a few times in the current war in Syria, where they tunnel under a HQ and blow it up. Sure, trying to overrun a garrison does, but that is basically a complex way of committing suicide unless you have an actual army out there and/or can arrange to take out the orbital systems.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Zakharra   » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:33 pm

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Duckk wrote:
Zakharra wrote:True points, but I am thinking more in line of asymmetrical warfare, ie guerrilla warfare. There's be no open bases to destroy, no weapons stations and the like, just a spread out force of fighters (countryside or urban areas) that are actively resisting the occupation. It wouldn't take much to have resisting. With a system average of 2-6 billion people, even 2% resisting will be in the millions. And with the systems being developed, simple explosive weaponry and the like can be made in basement/underground machine shops or in the bowels of mountains or mega-cities.

I know and acknowledge that most worlds wouldn't resist, but to think some wouldn't isn't taking human nature into account.


Yes some planets resist even after surrender (San Martin comes to mind). In which case, yes, you would need to keep a relatively large garrison in system (like San Martin).

However, I think that you're underestimating the intelligence gathering and counterinsurgency capabilities available in the Honorverse. This can be seen in several books, such as SoS, SoF, and CoG. If you don't have access to heavy, modern weapons to offset the occupier's heavy, modern weapons, trying to resist the occupation is still a losing proposition. All the resistance movements in those books hinged on having weapons which could fight off powered armor and armored vehicles.


Intelligence gathering works both ways though. If the GA was occupying the planet, why would their intelligence always be better or more capable than the locals? I and others here can likely think of several ways that GA/Manticore intelligence can be played false and be a set up, or even penetrate Manticore/GA systems. If the GA uses electronic intelligence (listening in on electronic media, or spying/hacking computer systems), they would be just as vulnerable to skilled hackers and EW specialists as those they are trying to take down.

Counter insurgency can be fought by determined people, especially if they have the population on their side. The insurgency on San Martin comes to mind. It was battered and a good amount of damage was done to the world and system by the PRH occupiers, but the population by and large (as far as I know) didn't turn on the resistance because they supported what they were doing. The PRH could have stopped it, but likely only by destroying large sections of the planet and killing a lot of the population.

Which is the key, if the occupying force isn't willing to inflict the damage necessary to wipe out an insurgency that has popular support, then the best it can do is grin and bear the constant combat losses. That's why I said the GA isn't likely to use those tactics and it seems they'd be more likely to just hold the orbital and system space and leave the world to rot rather than directly occupy it to put their own government in place.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:18 pm

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I can see some advantages to leaving a world to rot, especially if you have a supply of carrots to go with your big stick. If you simply control the orbitals and ignore what's going on planet side along with the message, give up your hostility, renounce the League, enter into peaceful agreements and we will give you back your orbital industry or help you rebuild it if its been damaged and give you favorable trade agreements, access to the wormhole network, I can imagine that a quite a few worlds would decide that hostility wasn't a worthwhile proposition.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by SWM   » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:21 pm

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Alizon wrote:Well, you really can't "compel" a planet to surrender from orbit. It may clearly be in the best interests of someone to surrender but you can't actually compel anything from a distance, which is sort of the point.

You can effectively compel a planet to surrender from orbit IF it is the commonly accepted practice that you surrender when you lose the orbits and have no prospect of immediate external relief. And that is the case in the Honorverse, as David has stated several times both in the text and infodumps. It is enforced by the common knowledge that the enemy can and will drop kinetic weapons on military targets, regardless of where they are.

Yes, I'm sure you can target Kinetic Weapons very precisely but essentially all you're doing is substituting kinetic energy from chemical or nuclear energy and how much energy you need to use is still going to be governed by the target you are trying to destroy. If the target is well defended and strengthened to resist such attacks, the amount of energy needed to reduce it could be very substantial and lead to considerable collateral damage.

Essentially, if you have a structure designed to resist a nuclear explosion, then you're going to need an energy release equivalent to a nuclear explosion to engage that target effectively. While a KEW probably would be a cleaner weapon in comparison to a Nuke, that energy release is still going to damage a lot of things and kill a lot of people, probably people you'd rather not kill.

How do you deal with enemy forces in the field or dispersed throughout major urban areas without devastating the areas surrounding them? Does "precisely target" mean a hypervelocity pebble for every soldier? Do RMN ships carry dedicated mass drivers for just such an event? What would you have to do to defeat a planet which has made substantial preparations to defend against such an attack? If you are using KEW's, what would be the difference between using a weapon of mass destruction and using KEW's to subdue a planet?

Yes, granted most worlds aren't going to take this option and will choose to submit rather than face this possibility, and most planets which don't can effectively be bypassed. But there may well be situations where the aggressor force actually needs the planet itself and the planet is prepared for and chooses to resist.

KEW's have the same problem as nukes. If you really need to depend on them to force a planet to surrender, you really need the planet to either cooperate with you or you need to be prepared to devastate it's surface otherwise the threat that goes along with it's use is relatively minor, sort of like lobbing the occasional cruise missile at people you don't like. People need to believe you will use them as WMD's in order for them to be cowed into submission.

But the people of the Honorverse DO believe that KEWs will be used on military targets if you refuse to surrender. It is a fully accepted practice of war. Don't try to apply 21st century attitudes to it--they have different rules of war.

I suspect that you have not read this infodump:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/1. It may be helpful.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:42 pm

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SWM wrote:
Alizon wrote:Well, you really can't "compel" a planet to surrender from orbit. It may clearly be in the best interests of someone to surrender but you can't actually compel anything from a distance, which is sort of the point.

You can effectively compel a planet to surrender from orbit IF it is the commonly accepted practice that you surrender when you lose the orbits and have no prospect of immediate external relief. And that is the case in the Honorverse, as David has stated several times both in the text and infodumps. It is enforced by the common knowledge that the enemy can and will drop kinetic weapons on military targets, regardless of where they are.

Yes, I'm sure you can target Kinetic Weapons very precisely but essentially all you're doing is substituting kinetic energy from chemical or nuclear energy and how much energy you need to use is still going to be governed by the target you are trying to destroy. If the target is well defended and strengthened to resist such attacks, the amount of energy needed to reduce it could be very substantial and lead to considerable collateral damage.

Essentially, if you have a structure designed to resist a nuclear explosion, then you're going to need an energy release equivalent to a nuclear explosion to engage that target effectively. While a KEW probably would be a cleaner weapon in comparison to a Nuke, that energy release is still going to damage a lot of things and kill a lot of people, probably people you'd rather not kill.

How do you deal with enemy forces in the field or dispersed throughout major urban areas without devastating the areas surrounding them? Does "precisely target" mean a hypervelocity pebble for every soldier? Do RMN ships carry dedicated mass drivers for just such an event? What would you have to do to defeat a planet which has made substantial preparations to defend against such an attack? If you are using KEW's, what would be the difference between using a weapon of mass destruction and using KEW's to subdue a planet?

Yes, granted most worlds aren't going to take this option and will choose to submit rather than face this possibility, and most planets which don't can effectively be bypassed. But there may well be situations where the aggressor force actually needs the planet itself and the planet is prepared for and chooses to resist.

KEW's have the same problem as nukes. If you really need to depend on them to force a planet to surrender, you really need the planet to either cooperate with you or you need to be prepared to devastate it's surface otherwise the threat that goes along with it's use is relatively minor, sort of like lobbing the occasional cruise missile at people you don't like. People need to believe you will use them as WMD's in order for them to be cowed into submission.

But the people of the Honorverse DO believe that KEWs will be used on military targets if you refuse to surrender. It is a fully accepted practice of war. Don't try to apply 21st century attitudes to it--they have different rules of war.

I suspect that you have not read this infodump:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/1. It may be helpful.


Hi SWM,

I think you are only partially right here. Think about Masada. At least some of Masada's leadership went underground after the RMA moved in and there was covert resistance. We are not talking about 21st century attitudes nearly so much as human nature. If you have a sector of the public or even a majority of the public determined to support resistance, then resistance will happen no matter how far underground you drive it. Trying to manage that with KEW strikes would be about as effective as bombing the Ho Chi Minah trail.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by SWM   » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:23 am

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n7axw wrote:Hi SWM,

I think you are only partially right here. Think about Masada. At least some of Masada's leadership went underground after the RMA moved in and there was covert resistance. We are not talking about 21st century attitudes nearly so much as human nature. If you have a sector of the public or even a majority of the public determined to support resistance, then resistance will happen no matter how far underground you drive it. Trying to manage that with KEW strikes would be about as effective as bombing the Ho Chi Minah trail.

Don

I didn't say that there is never resistance and that no one ever refuses to surrender. No one in this thread has claimed that it never happens. We have seen multiple instances of both in the text. I'm just saying that this is the common practice, and that the attitude when someone gets bombarded after refusing to surrender is that they brought it on themselves. Most of the time, the planet will surrender.

I wish people would stop implying that I am saying it never happens. I've said this over and over, and I'm getting tired of it. I don't know how to say it any more clearly.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Lord Skimper   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:28 am

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SWM wrote:
n7axw wrote:Hi SWM,

I think you are only partially right here. Think about Masada. At least some of Masada's leadership went underground after the RMA moved in and there was covert resistance. We are not talking about 21st century attitudes nearly so much as human nature. If you have a sector of the public or even a majority of the public determined to support resistance, then resistance will happen no matter how far underground you drive it. Trying to manage that with KEW strikes would be about as effective as bombing the Ho Chi Minah trail.

Don

I didn't say that there is never resistance and that no one ever refuses to surrender. No one in this thread has claimed that it never happens. We have seen multiple instances of both in the text. I'm just saying that this is the common practice, and that the attitude when someone gets bombarded after refusing to surrender is that they brought it on themselves. Most of the time, the planet will surrender.

I wish people would stop implying that I am saying it never happens. I've said this over and over, and I'm getting tired of it. I don't know how to say it any more clearly.


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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by hanuman   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:28 am

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n7axw wrote:Hi SWM,

I think you are only partially right here. Think about Masada. At least some of Masada's leadership went underground after the RMA moved in and there was covert resistance. We are not talking about 21st century attitudes nearly so much as human nature. If you have a sector of the public or even a majority of the public determined to support resistance, then resistance will happen no matter how far underground you drive it. Trying to manage that with KEW strikes would be about as effective as bombing the Ho Chi Minah trail.

Don


It's really not a good idea to use Masada as an example wrt any kind of common practice or behaviour. They're too far outside the mainstream of galactic society.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Jaxon06   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:14 am

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hanuman wrote:
It's really not a good idea to use Masada as an example wrt any kind of common practice or behaviour. They're too far outside the mainstream of galactic society.


And that comment is based on what?
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