Gun evolution

Hi Don,

I've suggested the IHA [the Mighty Host and the Archangels] might be split into quarters, with one sent straight across to the Daivyn to replace Kaitswyrth after Symkyns takes him down; since he lost 19,000 rifles to DE, so he might have ~9,000 left to Symkyn's ~54,000 for a 6-1 ratio without getting into the ICA's vast artillery superiority.

The MHoGatA's 'army group center' might discover the allies' Army of Cliff Peak might be there to help the Army of the Daivyn, along with some ironclads, two of the first four plus possibly more, and other reinforcements, while cutting off further supplies via the Fairmyn river.

By the time the MHatA's 'army group north' manages to clear the Langhorne canal, Symkyn might be able to flank it and cut the canal behind them while 'army group south' discovers the ICN can play hob with its supply route in the Bay of Bess.

One also wonders how long Duchairn will be able to keep the CoGA's economic house of cards going, if someone [like Aivah] starts refusing to accept church paper or the minor assets offered that might cause a run, compelling the Go4 from making payments even temporarily could have significant effects on the armies in the field at a crucial time, say autumn and they need food and fuel for the winter, but there's a several week gap...

Interesting times indeed.

L

n7axw wrote:Hi Lyonheart,

Nice post. You are spot on with your comments on logistics. I find myself wondering if the Harchongese will ever make it into Siddarmark. By the time they get to try, they will face a rebuilt Siddarmarkan army equiped with modern weapons as well as EOC forces in position to work around behind them and...guess what...cut off their logistics.

Don

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

I've suggested the IHA [the Mighty Host and the Archangels] might be split into quarters, with one sent straight across to the Daivyn to replace Kaitswyrth after Symkyns takes him down; since he lost 19,000 rifles to DE, so he might have ~9,000 left to Symkyn's ~54,000 for a 6-1 ratio without getting into the ICA's vast artillery superiority.

The MHatA's 'army group center' might discover the allies' Army of Cliff Peak might be there to help the Army of the Daivyn, along with some ironclads, two of the first four plus possibly more, and other reinforcements, while cutting off further supplies via the Fairmyn river.

By the time the MHatA's 'army group north' manages to clear the Langhorne canal, Symkyn might be able to flank it and cut the canal behind them while 'army group south' discovers the ICN can play hob with its supply route in the Bay of Bess.

One also wonders how long Duchairn will be able to keep the CoGA's economic house of cards going, if someone [like Aivah] starts refusing to accept church paper or the minor assets offered that might cause a run, compelling the Go4 from making payments even temporarily could have significant effects on the armies in the field at a crucial time, say autumn and they need food and fuel for the winter, but there's a several week gap...

Interesting times indeed.

L

n7axw wrote:Hi Lyonheart,

Nice post. You are spot on with your comments on logistics. I find myself wondering if the Harchongese will ever make it into Siddarmark. By the time they get to try, they will face a rebuilt Siddarmarkan army equiped with modern weapons as well as EOC forces in position to work around behind them and...guess what...cut off their logistics.

Don

Hi Lyonheart,

Nice post again. My initial thought about Duchairn's efforts is that he probably not going to run out of elbow room any time soon, given what we learn from his conversations with Magwair in LAMA. He will simply dig deeper into the pockets of the vicars and the Harchonese aristocrats in particular, as well as any other pockets he can reach with full inquistion backing.

I've wondered what would happen if they did run out of money and started requistioning what they need without compensation or with worthless paper. But maybe that would be a bridge too far, even for Clyntahn.

Don

I don't think uncompensated requisitions would be too much for Clyntahn.

In fact I think it's Duchairn who has prevented exactly that from happening.

BarryKirk wrote:I don't think uncompensated requisitions would be too much for Clyntahn.

In fact I think it's Duchairn who has prevented exactly that from happening.

I guess I didn't manage to say what I was thinking. By a bridge too far, I was thinking about him creating a set of circumstances beyond his ability to control the outcome.

Although when I Consider the matter further, that is really how the COGA got into its current mess: Clyntahn going a bridge too far--repeatedly. He seems a slow learner.

Don

BarryKirk wrote:I don't think uncompensated requisitions would be too much for Clyntahn.

In fact I think it's Duchairn who has prevented exactly that from happening.

Clyntahn would probably like having to not pay for anything. If I remember right, when the Navy of God was being built, he was chafing at the idea of the Church paying compensation for the men who signed up since their families didn't have any income (assuming the woman was a stay at home mom which seems to be the norm, he also didn't like the idea of paying death benefits either. He thought they should be signing up to do it for free, because of their faith.

I can easily see Clyntahn getting very angry when the money does run out. 'What? How DARE they not give to Mother Church in Her time of need?' And sends in the Inquisition to force payment from any recalcitrant financial donors. Of course I can also see one of the other members of the Group of Four pulling a gun and shooting him too.

Hi Zakharra,

If that happens while Aivah and Merlin are there, things could really pop, huh?

But their schedules seem off for that coincidence to happen.

But Aivah's agents might know more of what goes on in the temple than we've been allowed so far, which could be very interesting.

I've suggested before that Merlin, Nahrmahn or OWL might secret a remote in some safe confessional approved by Aivah etc, [the church used by the circle has obviously been compromised] that servants and such could visit, and given a 'safe' visual signal by someone unseen, 'confess' securely and leave almost anonymously, while OWL and Nahrmahn correlate that data with all the rest from other remotes in other churches around Zion etc.

Remember, if Merlin as a rather large sensor signature could wander about Zion a couple of times only 2-3 miles from the temple, just how close could Nahrmahn safely get with a microscopic remote?

How about specially built remotes that don't function the way federation sensors look for such, so they're ignored?

Half a mile? A quarter?

If several such were placed to overhear the vicars it would be very useful, or see if some of the various vents are outside that radius, besides servants that could drop messages and quickly return to the temple...

Suppose a rumor spread that telling what you knew went on in the temple in a certain church or chapel could lead to a monetary reward left for you by some unseen agent perhaps in or near the donations cup etc, ie someone apparently missed?

My point with Merlin being a PICA was that we may discover much of Merlin's concerns were unwarranted, and that he'll be very disgusted with himself over all the time wasted not penetrating the temple or developing electricity, or something that could and should have been done sooner but wasn't because he was too cautious.

Of course, that will probably happen only in the 20 year future story arc that RFC's promised us after the current war ends in the next couple of books.

That's life as Cayleb would probably say.

L

Zakharra wrote:

BarryKirk wrote:I don't think uncompensated requisitions would be too much for Clyntahn.

In fact I think it's Duchairn who has prevented exactly that from happening.

Clyntahn would probably like having to not pay for anything. If I remember right, when the Navy of God was being built, he was chafing at the idea of the Church paying compensation for the men who signed up since their families didn't have any income (assuming the woman was a stay at home mom which seems to be the norm, he also didn't like the idea of paying death benefits either. He thought they should be signing up to do it for free, because of their faith.

I can easily see Clyntahn getting very angry when the money does run out. 'What? How DARE they not give to Mother Church in Her time of need?' And sends in the Inquisition to force payment from any recalcitrant financial donors. Of course I can also see one of the other members of the Group of Four pulling a gun and shooting him too.

n7axw wrote:I would expect a more sophisticated system for sighting naval guns to allow them to be used more accurately at greater range.

Don

Don,

Naval gunnery was *NEVER* about the use of systems until highly sophisticated computers were available !! All good naval gunners were *TRAINED* in "sighting" in their guns based on the relative motions of his own ship as well as the enemy ship, both moving in 3D (roll, pitch and yaw) !!! Therefore, a naval gunner is rather like a bird hunter, anticipating where the target will be, not where the target is right now !!

Henry Brown wrote:

SYED wrote:Do we know when semi or automatic guns are going to enter the war? While they can fire alot now, they still can fire a set number each time. they are going to face high numbers, so the ability to keep them in check is very valuable.

From a purely technical standpoint, if Charis can build a bolt action such as the M-96 Mahdrayn, then they can build the early machine guns. From a historical standpoint, the Maxim machine gun was invented in 1884. This is actually earlier in history than most of the historical bolt actions such as the Lee-Enfield (1895), Mauser M98 (1898), Springfield (1903), or the Mosin-Nagant (1891).
*edited once

Prior to any of those, the Pauly needle gun was invented in 1808 and a mass-produced Dreyse needle gun (1824) was used extensively by the Prussians to defeat Napoleon III in the Franco-Prussian War and the Prussian-Austrian War!! Both of these were bolt action weapons !! They were also examples near-caseless ammunitions, in that the paper cartridge was burnt off on ignition and only the purcussion cap was left !!

Weird Harold wrote:

iranuke wrote:The Maxim gun fired about 600 rounds/minute. A platoon of the Charisian Army consists of 57 men and with the old single shot capped rifle they can fire at 6 rounds/minute each. This gives them a rate of fire about half of the Maxim gun. They will be swapping out for the M96 eventually which will up their rate of fire to between 15 to 20 rounds/minute or a rate of fire of close to twice the rate of fire for the Maxim gun. So long as they can keep their army supplied with rounds, I don't see the need for a machine gun at this time.

The "need for a machine gun" lies in your numbers: Two of those Maxims require a minimum crew of three; that's six people putting out the same amount of fire as Fifty-seven troopers armed with the latest bolt-actions. That's pretty much a 10:1 manpower advantage for the Machine gun.

The disadvantage is the the Maxim or Gatling are cumbersome crew-served artillery pieces where the Bolt Action rifles are individually mobile and versatile.

Given OWL and Merlin's encyclopedic knowledge of history, I really expect Charis's next firearm development to be similar to the AK-47; made of stamped metal with low machining tolerances, the AK-47 fits the industrial capabilities and battlefield conditions of Safehold a lot better than a Maxim, M1 Garand, BAR/BMG, or M-16 clones would.

Given that the machinegun can shoot in ONE direction at a time, it would have to spray bullets all over the place to ensure some effect. Whereas, a platoon of rifle armed men can shoot in many directions and effectively wipe out the crew of a machine gun when it is no pointing at them !! Effectively, a mob of pygmies can take on a giant if they are willing to take causalities !! Hence, machineguns are usually only effective when they are massed in overlapping fields of fire !!

Henry Brown wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:I tend to think that two years might be a bit pessimistic. I don't have a lot of respect for Harchong's conscripted peasant army; I think they're more dangerous to the Harchong Empire than they are to Charis and Siddarmark.

The primary limitation on Charis' advance to Zion seems to be logistics, and I would expect Tactical Rail and/or Steam Trucks to make an appearance before machine guns; better transportation and better logistics is going to do more to shorten the war than automatic firearms.

With regards to the state of the Harchonese army as originally constituted, I would say you are absolutely correct. The army that left Harchong was badly trained, and poorly equipped. But since then, Duchairn has organized a program to re-arm them and the AoG has undertaken a winter-long training program. I would expect this to make a big difference.

A historical example of this would be the winter training that Washington's army received at Valley Forge during the American Revolution. In addition there is the sheer size of the Harchongese army. It will be extremely difficult to wipe them out quickly, which will give the survivors of the initial battles a chance to gain combat experience.

The other factor to consider is that RFC does not do one sided military porn. I just can't see him writing a book in which the entire million and a half man Harchongese army is wiped out as quickly as you seem to think. Remember, he might have once titled a book "The Short Victorious War." But he usually does not write about them.

It's not the size of the army that counts; it's the quality of their leadership, too !! The Russians out-numbered the Germans 2:1 on the Eastern Front in WW1. Yet the Germans decisively defeated them with minimum losses and took 1/4 of the Russian army as prisoners, simply because the Russian officer corp were filled with useless aristos instead of proper military men !! The outcome of those battles had a consequence that might apply to the Harchongese - the 1917 Russian revolution and the rise of the USSR !!