Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be

SWM wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Give me some text. Don't just give me your ideas on what the Alignment plans are--show me text evidence that the Alignment plans to use military force.

The most explicit textev I can think of:

Mission Of Honor (eARC)
Chapter Thirty-eight
(Albrrecht Detweiler POV) wrote:Every one of those slaves had been born here in Darius, and not one of them had ever left the system. Their knowledge of what was happening elsewhere in the galaxy, of the history of Mesa, or of their own history had been carefully controlled for generations. They'd been aware for those same generations that they and their parents and grandparents had been laboring to build first the basic industry and then the specialized infrastructure to support a massive navy, but they were convinced it was intended as a defensive fleet.

(Italics by the Author, Bold by me.)

If the "massive navy" is not a "defensive fleet" What else could it be except an "Offensive Fleet." People don't invest in massive offensive fleets unless they intend to use them.

Other testev explicitly states the MAlign goal is to replace the Solarian League with the Renaissance Factor.

So, do you still contend that a group whose express intention is to rule Solarian League Space, and is building a "massive navy" that is NOT a defensive fleet, aren't planning on using military force?

I will grant that this is suggestive. I don't think it is really strong evidence, but it is some evidence. But this is the Darius fleet. Covert operations are not defensive. I have already stated that the Detweilers are intended for covert operations. That satisfies the statement that the fleet is not a defensive fleet. So, yes, I do still contend that the Alignment does not intend to take over planets by overt military force.

Now you are splitting hairs. If a fleet isn't defensive in nature, it's offensive. We're clearly told that the fleet being built at Darius isn't defensive. That leaves the only other option, offensive actions, ie conquest. It's like your claiming the Masadan fleet way back when was not defensive, but not offensive either, when it slept most of its time in the Grayson system, trying to conquer it. The fleet is meant as a tool of conquest and force, to make those systems that won't join voluntarily, join one way or another.


*altered due to the quote limitation of the quoting gods

Zhakara, please excuse me for not quoting you, since I don't think it is necessary. I agree with everything you said, except that I don't think any of that is evidence that the Alignment plans overt military aggression. All of the goals that you and I both agree the Alignment has can be accomplished by covert means, and you have not presented any evidence that they plan to use overt aggression except your own belief.

Zakharra wrote: Now you are splitting hairs. If a fleet isn't defensive in nature, it's offensive. We're clearly told that the fleet being built at Darius isn't defensive. That leaves the only other option, offensive actions, ie conquest. It's like your claiming the Masadan fleet way back when was not defensive, but not offensive either, when it slept most of its time in the Grayson system, trying to conquer it. The fleet is meant as a tool of conquest and force, to make those systems that won't join voluntarily, join one way or another.


*altered due to the quote limitation of the quoting gods

I never said that the Darius fleet was not offensive; what I've said is that it is not intended for overt military conquest. My point all along has been the distinction between overt military conquest and covert takeovers. You say that they plan overt military conquest, and I say they don't. If the Darius fleet is intended for covert operations as I say, then the existence of the Darius fleet does not support your contention that they intend overt military conquest. Therefore it is not splitting hairs.

SWM wrote:

Zakharra wrote: Now you are splitting hairs. If a fleet isn't defensive in nature, it's offensive. We're clearly told that the fleet being built at Darius isn't defensive. That leaves the only other option, offensive actions, ie conquest. It's like your claiming the Masadan fleet way back when was not defensive, but not offensive either, when it slept most of its time in the Grayson system, trying to conquer it. The fleet is meant as a tool of conquest and force, to make those systems that won't join voluntarily, join one way or another.


*altered due to the quote limitation of the quoting gods

I never said that the Darius fleet was not offensive; what I've said is that it is not intended for overt military conquest. My point all along has been the distinction between overt military conquest and covert takeovers. You say that they plan overt military conquest, and I say they don't. If the Darius fleet is intended for covert operations as I say, then the existence of the Darius fleet does not support your contention that they intend overt military conquest. Therefore it is not splitting hairs.

Sorry, SWM, but what other kind of offensive military action is there, if not conquest?

What I said is that the Alignment is already waging a covert war of attrition against those star nations it perceives as most likely to resist its grand plan successfully.

But the fact that it is building an offensive fleet of its own at Darius clearly implies that as soon as it feels that conditions are ripe, it intends to turn its covert war (which is meant to weaken its perceived enemies) into an overt one (with the intention of conquering them).

And since it is ALREADY waging war against other star nations and have been doing so for centuries, without those star nations even being aware of it or having done anything to provoke the Alignment, the only conclusion one can possibly reach from its attempt to build an offensive fleet is that any overt war it means to wage will be a war of conquest.

I mean, let's get real here, shall we? For centuries, Manticore and Haven weren't even aware of the Alignment's covert aggression against them. Whatever gives you the idea that it won't continue that aggression once its new fleet is combat ready?

Any reasonably intelligent person - and even though I disagree with your argument, the manner in which you present that argument indicates that you are more than just reasonably intelligent - should be able to follow that logic and come to the same conclusion. It's the only possible outcome of the known facts, after all.

I have to pitch in with SWM on this one. If the Alignment was planning an overt war of conquest, it wouldn't have made the unholy level of effort required to conceive, design and build the spider drive and build a fleet of major combatants to to be powered by it.

Everything I've seen about the Detweiler class indicates, to me, that they are intended to be Sharks writ large - indeed, if memory serves, it was the Detweilers that were supposed to be used for Oyster Bay, but the schedule was brought forward and they weren't ready in time.

My expectation is that the plan for the Detweilers is further covert actions, crippling any powerbase that could pose a threat to the rise of the Renaissance Factor and generally sowing chaos and mistrust to prevent such power blocs forming. As the galaxy slips into a new Dark age, the Renaissance Factor will emerge as the beacon of unity and civilisation, leading humanity back from the abyss and guided by its genetically superior leaders.

[Edit - hit Submit before I was done]

In short, the plan isn't to conquer the galaxy and impose the new genetic order, it's to covertly cripple the opponents of that new order and sow chaos and division, while simultaneously offering the brighter alternative, until humanity chooses the new order of its own will. Thereby proving that Detweiler was right and Beowulf was wrong.

This is why I don't think we'll see a genocidal attack on Beowulf. If Beowulf is destroyed, then they can never be made to admit that their mistake.

Dafmeister wrote:I have to pitch in with SWM on this one. If the Alignment was planning an overt war of conquest, it wouldn't have made the unholy level of effort required to conceive, design and build the spider drive and build a fleet of major combatants to to be powered by it.

Everything I've seen about the Detweiler class indicates, to me, that they are intended to be Sharks writ large - indeed, if memory serves, it was the Detweilers that were supposed to be used for Oyster Bay, but the schedule was brought forward and they weren't ready in time.

My expectation is that the plan for the Detweilers is further covert actions, crippling any powerbase that could pose a threat to the rise of the Renaissance Factor and generally sowing chaos and mistrust to prevent such power blocs forming. As the galaxy slips into a new Dark age, the Renaissance Factor will emerge as the beacon of unity and civilisation, leading humanity back from the abyss and guided by its genetically superior leaders.

[Edit - hit Submit before I was done]

In short, the plan isn't to conquer the galaxy and impose the new genetic order, it's to covertly cripple the opponents of that new order and sow chaos and division, while simultaneously offering the brighter alternative, until humanity chooses the new order of its own will. Thereby proving that Detweiler was right and Beowulf was wrong.

This is why I don't think we'll see a genocidal attack on Beowulf. If Beowulf is destroyed, then they can never be made to admit that their mistake.

Dafmeister, I'll grant the possibility that the Alignment will continue its covert war, rather than turn it into an open war of conquest. I disagree, but the possibility always exists.

But I maintain that - covert or overt - whatever use the Alignment puts its superdreadnoughts to, the outcome remains conquest. Whether it is simply to prepare the way for the Renaissance Factor to replace the League, by weakening any possible opponents to the point of vulnerability, or whether it is to make it possible for the Renaissance Factor's hidden face to come out into the open, logic suggests that any attempt to replace the League with the Factor will require conquest of recalcitrant star nations in order to succeed.

As for the covert vs overt question, I remind you that at the meeting of the Factor's leadership on Mannerheim (?) Albrecht Detweiler clearly stated that the time for him to come out into the open as the supreme leader of the Factor has not come yet. At a later point, he observes to himself that he seriously doubt that he will be the particular Alignment leader to step out into the open. Both of those passages very strongly suggest that the Alignment is in fact planning to reveal itself publicly, since as far as the rest of humanity knows, Leonard Detweiler's line ended with his death. Thus, for Albrecht or one of his descendents to reveal their identity publicly, that will almost certainly require the revelation of the Alignment's existence.

SWM wrote:Zhakara, please excuse me for not quoting you, since I don't think it is necessary. I agree with everything you said, except that I don't think any of that is evidence that the Alignment plans overt military aggression. All of the goals that you and I both agree the Alignment has can be accomplished by covert means, and you have not presented any evidence that they plan to use overt aggression except your own belief.

Fair points all of them, but for the last. Covert actions can only take you so far. At some point you have to take overt actions to win. The RF intends to be thew ruler over all of the human worlds. When they come out in the open about what they intend to do (rewrite humanity's genetic code to the MAlign view of what the human race should be), there will be worlds and cultures that oppose it. Violently. Even before that, there will be worlds and entire regions that will refuse to join the RF. At that point military force will have to be used to force them into the fold.

That is the goal of the MAlign/RF: humanity united under their, the MAlign's 'gentle and guiding hand'. Whether they want it or not. That's the reason the MAlign is planning on building SDs, to use force when they have to. By definition, if a fleet/military force isn't defensive, it's only use is an offensive/aggressive one. There's no other way.

SWM wrote:Zhakara, please excuse me for not quoting you, since I don't think it is necessary. I agree with everything you said, except that I don't think any of that is evidence that the Alignment plans overt military aggression. All of the goals that you and I both agree the Alignment has can be accomplished by covert means, and you have not presented any evidence that they plan to use overt aggression except your own belief.

Well, this really isn't direct evidence of future plans, but I would say that the Yawatta Strike certainly establishes precedent for agressive military action when the MAlign feels that it is called for.

Don

SWM wrote:I never said that the Darius fleet was not offensive; what I've said is that it is not intended for overt military conquest. My point all along has been the distinction between overt military conquest and covert takeovers.

The MAlign is currently a Piranha with delusions of growing into a Great White. The Fleet at Darius is only a portion of the Mesan Alignment Navy. All of the SDF forces of the Renaissance Factor (and Mesa before 10th Fleet's arrival) are also part of the MAN and they are all conventional ship types. Since we aren't given a breakdown of the RF ships numbers and types or exact numbers of Lenny Dets or other smaller spider-ships, it isn't possible to say how big a portion the Darius Fleet is. We can only say it is not the entire MAlign Fleet.

The Darius Fleet is much like the squadron of F-117 stealth fighters stationed Groom Lake for years until Pres Reagan publicized them. When the F-117's were finally used openly, in the first Gulf War, they were only part of a much larger conventional force that could have (and IMHO, should have) conquered Iraq outright.

In effect, you're saying that since the Darius portion of the MAN is optimized for covert attacks, the whole MAN is only capable of covert attacks. For the near future, you're probably correct because the Darius Fleet is not operational yet and the Renaissance Factor is several years away from becoming big enough and prosperous enough to take on the systems they can't entice into joining for protection from the chaos.

But there is only so much covert actions can accomplish by themselves; eventually the MAlign will have to resort to overt military conquest of recalcitrant systems. (assuming of course that the GA and IAN permit them to finish building the Darius Fleet and the RF can grow big enough to be the "800Kg Gorilla" and take over human occupied space.

n7axw wrote:

SWM wrote:Zhakara, please excuse me for not quoting you, since I don't think it is necessary. I agree with everything you said, except that I don't think any of that is evidence that the Alignment plans overt military aggression. All of the goals that you and I both agree the Alignment has can be accomplished by covert means, and you have not presented any evidence that they plan to use overt aggression except your own belief.

Well, this really isn't direct evidence of future plans, but I would say that the Yawatta Strike certainly establishes precedent for agressive military action when the MAlign feels that it is called for.

Don

I think I have to jump in on SWM's side of the discussion. The Yawata Strike was a covert mission, start to finish. There was no overt action taken. In fact, they went to great lengths to hide who actually did it.

The SDF's of the RF are, on the other hand, overt expressions of power. But, and this is a big but, they will be used to defend other systems from the covert enemy with the covert ships. To that end, I think we will see RF units destroy an automated Lenny Det or two to prove that they are actually there to protect and not to conquer. The two separate parts of the Malign's navy will be the two parts of the carrot and stick approach. By proving that they are the good guys, the RF will be attempting a political conquest, not a military one.

Any action by the MAlign will be as covert as possible, even though the results will be overt. For instance, shooting up a systems infrastructure from stealth. This will not happen where there is an RF presence, at all, except for the case where the RF demonstrates that it can indeed detect and destroy these unknown raiders.

If the Malign resorts to overt force, they have not lost but they have failed. The whole idea is to make everyone realize, voluntarily, that Beowulf was wrong. If they resort to force, they have proven Beowulf right, after all.