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Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be

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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by hanuman   » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:12 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:It might be a good idea to review Chapter 10 of Storm from the Shadows for this thread. For instance:

SotS Chapter 10 wrote:So far as the galaxy at large was aware, the planet Mesa was simply an outlaw world, home to ruthless and corrupt corporations from throughout the Solarian League's huge volume. Not a member of the League itself, Mesa nonetheless had lucrative contacts with many League worlds, which protected it and its "outlaw" owners from Solarian intervention. And, of course, the worst of the outlaws in question was none other than Manpower Incorporated, the galaxy's leading producer of genetic slaves, which had been founded by Leonard Detweiler the better part of six hundred T-years before. There were others, some of them equally disreputable and "evil" by other peoples' standards, but Manpower was clearly the standardbearer for Mesa's incredibly wealthy—and thoroughly corrupt—elite. And Manpower, equally clearly, was ruthlessly determined to protect its economic interests at any cost. Any and all of its political contacts, objectives, and strategies were obviously subordinated to that purpose.


And a bit later

SotS Chapter 10 wrote:It would no doubt have helped, in some ways, at least, if Leonard Detweiler had fully worked out his grand concept before establishing Manpower. No one could think of everything, unfortunately, and one thing Mesa's geneticists still hadn't been able to produce was prescience. Besides, he'd been provoked. His Detweiler Consortium had first settled Mesa in 1460 PD, migrating to its new home from Beowulf following the discovery of the Visigoth System's wormhole junction six T-years earlier. The Mesa System itself had first been surveyed in 1398, but until the astrogators discovered that it was home to one of the two secondary termini of the Visigoth Wormhole, it had been too far out in the back of beyond to attract development.


And furthermore:

SotS Chapter 10 wrote:It was quite clear that Leonard's decision to rename the Detweiler Consortium "Manpower, Incorporated," had been intended as a thumb in the eye to the entire Beowulf establishment, and that thumb had landed exactly where he'd aimed it. And if Beowulf had been . . . upset by the Detweiler Consortium's practice of wholesale genetic modification of colonists to suit hostile environments like Mesa, it was infuriated when Manpower began producing "indentured servants" genetically designed for specific environments or specific tasks. At first, periods of indenturement on Mesa itself had been limited to no more than twenty-five T-years, although even after completing their indentures, the "genetic clients" had been denied the franchise and generally treated as second-class citizens. As they became an increasing percentage of the planetary population, however, the planetary constitution had been modified to make "indenturement" a lifelong condition. Technically, Mesa and Manpower continued to insist that there were no such things as "slaves," only "indentured servants," but while that distinction might offer at least some useful smokescreen for Mesa's allies and paid mouthpieces in places like the Solarian League's Assembly, it was meaningless to the institution's opponents.


I think these passages make it clear that Leonard Detweiler had come up with at least the basic concept of a Mesan conspiracy of some kind to IMPOSE genetic upliftment on the rest of humanity.

We know that Manpower is only the first layer of the Onion, meant to distract any likely opponents of the Detweiler plan from the real conspiracy (i.e. the Alignment).

There are several mentions in the books that it is in fact the Alignment's goal to conquer and rule the rest of humanity. One of them was an internal dialogue by Jack whatshisname (Brighton?) when he was first becoming disillusioned with the Alignment, after Simoes' daughter was murdered, wherein he was quite clear about the terrible consequences awaiting 'normal' humans should the Alignment's plans succeed.

Albrecht Detweiler himself mentioned several times the Alignment's plans to replace the League as the dominant star nation - a position from which it'd then be able to implement its plan.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Alignment is in fact planning to set itself up as the ruling class over a galaxy-wide imperium, within which 'normal' humans would essentially become peons. It has already created such a social matrix on Darius, after all. I mean, if it was the Alignment's intention to treat 'normal' humans as equals to its own 'uplifted' members, why then recreate Mesa's slave society on what is for all intents and purposes the heartland of the Alignment?
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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by Commodore Oakius   » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:49 pm

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hanuman wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:Everything you said, for brevity


Everything you said too, for brevity also

Thank you for the text spots to disprove me. I still feel like I read somthing contrary somewhere, but I am probably imagining it. The one quote from JohnRoth was one of the ones I was thinking of, except it said something completely different to what I thought.
I will bow to the evidence.
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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by SWM   » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:53 pm

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hanuman wrote:There are several mentions in the books that it is in fact the Alignment's goal to conquer and rule the rest of humanity. One of them was an internal dialogue by Jack whatshisname (Brighton?) when he was first becoming disillusioned with the Alignment, after Simoes' daughter was murdered, wherein he was quite clear about the terrible consequences awaiting 'normal' humans should the Alignment's plans succeed.

Albrecht Detweiler himself mentioned several times the Alignment's plans to replace the League as the dominant star nation - a position from which it'd then be able to implement its plan.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Alignment is in fact planning to set itself up as the ruling class over a galaxy-wide imperium, within which 'normal' humans would essentially become peons. It has already created such a social matrix on Darius, after all. I mean, if it was the Alignment's intention to treat 'normal' humans as equals to its own 'uplifted' members, why then recreate Mesa's slave society on what is for all intents and purposes the heartland of the Alignment?

Yes, we know the Alignment plans to impose genetic uplift on the galaxy. And we know that they intend to set the Renaissance Factor up as the new Solarian League.

But that is NOT THE SAME as "conquering" the galaxy. People keep using the term "conquering" and saying that the Alignment intends to take over the galaxy by force. But that is not what the text says! Nowhere in the text does it say that the Alignment plans to conquer the galaxy by military force. Instead, the text implies that the goal is to gain control by political action, by advantageous use of the chaos, by working on people's fears, and by covert actions only where necessary. They want the Renaissance Factor to look like the good guys.
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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by Zakharra   » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:49 pm

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SWM wrote:
hanuman wrote:There are several mentions in the books that it is in fact the Alignment's goal to conquer and rule the rest of humanity. One of them was an internal dialogue by Jack whatshisname (Brighton?) when he was first becoming disillusioned with the Alignment, after Simoes' daughter was murdered, wherein he was quite clear about the terrible consequences awaiting 'normal' humans should the Alignment's plans succeed.

Albrecht Detweiler himself mentioned several times the Alignment's plans to replace the League as the dominant star nation - a position from which it'd then be able to implement its plan.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Alignment is in fact planning to set itself up as the ruling class over a galaxy-wide imperium, within which 'normal' humans would essentially become peons. It has already created such a social matrix on Darius, after all. I mean, if it was the Alignment's intention to treat 'normal' humans as equals to its own 'uplifted' members, why then recreate Mesa's slave society on what is for all intents and purposes the heartland of the Alignment?

Yes, we know the Alignment plans to impose genetic uplift on the galaxy. And we know that they intend to set the Renaissance Factor up as the new Solarian League.

But that is NOT THE SAME as "conquering" the galaxy. People keep using the term "conquering" and saying that the Alignment intends to take over the galaxy by force. But that is not what the text says! Nowhere in the text does it say that the Alignment plans to conquer the galaxy by military force. Instead, the text implies that the goal is to gain control by political action, by advantageous use of the chaos, by working on people's fears, and by covert actions only where necessary. They want the Renaissance Factor to look like the good guys.



At the start, because they will need willing allies to join them and time to work on changing the attitude towards genetic modification, but if they do succeed in forming a successor to the SL and some systems don't want to join, then military force will likely be used to force the rest in. And anyone that attacks them will automatically be incorporated and 'purified' because only degenerate low-grades (non uplifted/modified humans) would dare resist the benevolent hand of the RF which only wants the best for humanity and to guide humanity in it's destiny. And who better to do the guiding than the MAlign alpha alines?
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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by JohnS   » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:08 pm

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Zakharra wrote:At the start, because they will need willing allies to join them and time to work on changing the attitude towards genetic modification, but if they do succeed in forming a successor to the SL and some systems don't want to join, then military force will likely be used to force the rest in. And anyone that attacks them will automatically be incorporated and 'purified' because only degenerate low-grades (non uplifted/modified humans) would dare resist the benevolent hand of the RF which only wants the best for humanity and to guide humanity in it's destiny. And who better to do the guiding than the MAlign alpha alines?


Not to mention the SDs being built on Darius. There are clearly plans in place to solve certain problems with military force.

Ultimately, the Alignment intends to rule human-occupied space regardless of what its current inhabitants might want. That is conquest.
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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by JohnS   » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:10 pm

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Commodore Oakius wrote:I will bow to the evidence.


You are awesome. No joke.
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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by Commodore Oakius   » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:08 am

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JohnS wrote:
Commodore Oakius wrote:I will bow to the evidence.


You are awesome. No joke.

Thank you. :oops:
Ummm... why? :lol:
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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by crewdude48   » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:20 am

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Commodore Oakius wrote:
JohnS wrote:You are awesome. No joke.

Thank you. :oops:
Ummm... why? :lol:


This is the internet! People don't give up an argument on the internet just because they are wrong! And thanking people for it? I think they are supposed to take your connection away for that. :D
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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by Commodore Oakius   » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:35 am

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crewdude48 wrote:This is the internet! People don't give up an argument on the internet just because they are wrong! And thanking people for it? I think they are supposed to take your connection away for that. :D

Lol well I did ask for proof and they supplied quoted. Gotta give thanks for it. I just like discussion. Prove me wrong and I'll bow to it, but I'll never give away my connection. You can have it after you pry it from my cold dead hands. :lol:
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Re: Mesa is the boogy man it wasn't meant to be
Post by SWM   » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:54 am

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Zakharra wrote:
SWM wrote:Yes, we know the Alignment plans to impose genetic uplift on the galaxy. And we know that they intend to set the Renaissance Factor up as the new Solarian League.

But that is NOT THE SAME as "conquering" the galaxy. People keep using the term "conquering" and saying that the Alignment intends to take over the galaxy by force. But that is not what the text says! Nowhere in the text does it say that the Alignment plans to conquer the galaxy by military force. Instead, the text implies that the goal is to gain control by political action, by advantageous use of the chaos, by working on people's fears, and by covert actions only where necessary. They want the Renaissance Factor to look like the good guys.



At the start, because they will need willing allies to join them and time to work on changing the attitude towards genetic modification, but if they do succeed in forming a successor to the SL and some systems don't want to join, then military force will likely be used to force the rest in. And anyone that attacks them will automatically be incorporated and 'purified' because only degenerate low-grades (non uplifted/modified humans) would dare resist the benevolent hand of the RF which only wants the best for humanity and to guide humanity in it's destiny. And who better to do the guiding than the MAlign alpha alines?

That is what YOU think will happen. But the text doesn't say that. You might be right, you might be wrong. But I wish you and the others who keep saying this would stop acting as if it was a known fact. There is no text evidence that the Mesan Alignment intends to conquer the galaxy by military force.
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