Why did it take so long to deal with Silesia?

SWM wrote:

Hutch wrote:Besides, the MWW has declared that trade is both ongoing and very critical to many planets, and since it's his Universe...

Nit: trade is important to many planets. It is not critical.

Nit Nit - For young colonies, emergency supplies via freighters may be the only thing that keeps them alive.
So, to modify the statement...

Trade is important to many planets. It is critical to a smaller number.

Michael Everett wrote:

SWM wrote:Nit: trade is important to many planets. It is not critical.

Nit Nit - For young colonies, emergency supplies via freighters may be the only thing that keeps them alive.
So, to modify the statement...

Trade is important to many planets. It is critical to a smaller number.

In an emergency situation, any planet may be dependent on external aid in the short term, whether it be emergency medical supplies or emergency food in response to a famine. But no planet is critically dependent on trade. Not even a fledgling colony.

SWM wrote:

Hutch wrote:Besides, the MWW has declared that trade is both ongoing and very critical to many planets, and since it's his Universe...

Nit: trade is important to many planets. It is not critical.

I'd posit that interstellar trade is very critical for the systems if they want to do more than survive. To truly prosper, they need an active and vibrant interstellar trade going on. If Manticore didn't have the wormhole junction and the massive trade that goes with it, it would be a second rate system. Stronger than most, with three inhabitable worlds to trade with, but it would be far far weaker and MUCH less powerful/influential than it is now without that trade.

Zakharra wrote:

SWM wrote:Nit: trade is important to many planets. It is not critical.

I'd posit that interstellar trade is very critical for the systems if they want to do more than survive. To truly prosper, they need an active and vibrant interstellar trade going on. If Manticore didn't have the wormhole junction and the massive trade that goes with it, it would be a second rate system. Stronger than most, with three inhabitable worlds to trade with, but it would be far far weaker and MUCH less powerful/influential than it is now without that trade.

You must be using a different definition of critical than I am. I mean that no planet will collapse, starve, or otherwise fail if trade disappeared. They are not dependent on trade. And I'm getting that from what David said (I forget exactly how explicitly he said it).

I would use the term "important" for what you are calling "critical." I reserve critical for things that you cannot do without--that's what the word means. (Synonyms are "indispensable" and "vital".)

namelessfly wrote:Weber has painted a rather optimistic scenario of the SEM's imperialism. Anyone reading Jerry Pournelle's fiction or his website are aware of the historical precedents of imperialism transforming a free republic into a totalitarian empire. Rome is the classic example but Athens followed the same path.

The ongoing experience of the US with imperialism is probably perceived by Manticore as another example of imperialism transforming a society from a democratic republic into an empire. By many objective measures, the US is far less free than before WW-2 and Roosevelt. The fact that a US President can routinely wage war without the consent much less a formal declaration of war from Congress would shock Roosevelt and all of his predecessors. The fact that the US usually refrains from exploiting it's conquests economically has mitigated the transformation somewhat.

Manticore is no doubt dissuaded from imperialism by observing how conquest has affected the RoH.

Namelessfly, first off, I really think we should avoid any temptation to contrast empires with democracies. The United States itself is for all intents and purposes an empire - I need remind no one that she grew from a miniscule part of the North American continent to hold sovereign jurisdiction over a major part of the continent, by way of several huge land purchases, wars of conquest against numerous indigenous nations as well as the Mexican war that gave her possession of all of the southwestern states between Texas and the Pacific.

Yet she still remains a democratic country, with a bone-deep commitment to those values that are fundamentally democratic in value - equal opportunity for all, equal treatment before the law, freedom of choice and the right to privacy and to worship as one wishes being just the most important.

While I deeply admire the United States, for many reasons, there are some aspects about her foreign policy that are sadly troubling, to say the least. You claimed that she doesn't exploit her conquests. I beg to differ.

I have no intention of starting a debate on the topic here, but I do think it is important to make it clear that no form of government is ever perfect, and that it is unhelpful to make sweeping statements that ignore that truth. States and governments are human constructs, and as such are as subject to both the weaknesses and strengths of human agency as any other institution or organisation.

hanuman wrote: it is unhelpful to make sweeping statements that ignore that truth

You just made gigantic sweeping statements and are railing on others not to? Especially when you did not even grasp the basic fundamental issue that Namelessfly raised?

J6P wrote:You just made gigantic sweeping statements and are railing on others not to? Especially when you did not even grasp the basic fundamental issue that Namelessfly raised?

Or understand the definition of "empire"....

SWM wrote:

Zakharra wrote: I'd posit that interstellar trade is very critical for the systems if they want to do more than survive. To truly prosper, they need an active and vibrant interstellar trade going on. If Manticore didn't have the wormhole junction and the massive trade that goes with it, it would be a second rate system. Stronger than most, with three inhabitable worlds to trade with, but it would be far far weaker and MUCH less powerful/influential than it is now without that trade.

You must be using a different definition of critical than I am. I mean that no planet will collapse, starve, or otherwise fail if trade disappeared. They are not dependent on trade. And I'm getting that from what David said (I forget exactly how explicitly he said it).

I would use the term "important" for what you are calling "critical." I reserve critical for things that you cannot do without--that's what the word means. (Synonyms are "indispensable" and "vital".)

No. If a system doesn't have interstellar trade, it's not very prosperous, especially compared to a system that does a lot of trading. At the most, a system will survive, but not much more than that. Interstellar trade brings in new ideas, knowledge, import/exports, a lot of money. Those systems that don't trade are clearly second rate and poor in practically everything.

If Manticore didn't do any trading (and didn't have the wormhole junction that kind of prompts trading), it would not have been able to resist the PRH's first attack. It would be a LOT weaker economically, militarily and politically (in regards to interstellar diplomacy, it wouldn't have the allies it has either. If it's interstellar trade was cut off and it kept to the Manticore system, the Manticore economy would likely collapse completely.

Grayson, when it was first recruited, was a weak system because it basically had no interstellar trade. None of the main trading systems would be anywhere near where they are now if it wasn't for the wealth and influence that goes with it.

kzt wrote:

J6P wrote:You just made gigantic sweeping statements and are railing on others not to? Especially when you did not even grasp the basic fundamental issue that Namelessfly raised?

Or understand the definition of "empire"....

You mean that George Lucas guy right, with its associated shallow connotations....

Zakharra wrote:Grayson, when it was first recruited, was a weak system because it basically had no interstellar trade. None of the main trading systems would be anywhere near where they are now if it wasn't for the wealth and influence that goes with it.

Can you suggest exactly where the books suggest that Grayson has become wealthy through interstellar trade? Exactly what and who does it trade with? What is Grayson known for in the greater galaxy, and does it produce that the rest of the universe desires and will pay for?