Long term consequences of the League's collapse

Zakharra wrote:Merchant ships with the streak drives. they'd be able to haul cargoes faster than regular merchies. This means they can get a cargo to the target market faster, it could lower insurance and the cost of shipping, or there could be smaller merchantmen that specialize in speedy delivery (interstellar UPS?). With merchants, you don't necessarily need to have the most cargo of a certain type, you just need to get there before the rest of your competitors.

Merchies will *not* be getting the streak drive. At least, not for centuries or until something else better comes along. Merchies don't get the improved compensators (hell, even *before* the development of improved compensators, merchies were slower than comparably-massed warships), merchies don't get better rad shielding (both of which could contribute to getting the cargo there faster). So, what makes you think they will be getting something even newer and more expensive than those items that are currently available?

Don't forget the speculation on what it is: a brute force approach that is roughly twice the size of a normal hyperdrive (which merchies don't use now, either). I can't count the number of times that it's been mentioned in the books that merchant ships are about cost savings and not speed, hence why they have inferior compensators, rad shielding, and pretty much everything else.

MaxxQ wrote:

Zakharra wrote:Merchant ships with the streak drives. they'd be able to haul cargoes faster than regular merchies. This means they can get a cargo to the target market faster, it could lower insurance and the cost of shipping, or there could be smaller merchantmen that specialize in speedy delivery (interstellar UPS?). With merchants, you don't necessarily need to have the most cargo of a certain type, you just need to get there before the rest of your competitors.

Merchies will *not* be getting the streak drive. At least, not for centuries or until something else better comes along. Merchies don't get the improved compensators (hell, even *before* the development of improved compensators, merchies were slower than comparably-massed warships), merchies don't get better rad shielding (both of which could contribute to getting the cargo there faster). So, what makes you think they will be getting something even newer and more expensive than those items that are currently available?

Don't forget the speculation on what it is: a brute force approach that is roughly twice the size of a normal hyperdrive (which merchies don't use now, either). I can't count the number of times that it's been mentioned in the books that merchant ships are about cost savings and not speed, hence why they have inferior compensators, rad shielding, and pretty much everything else.

Alright, maybe most merchant ships wouldn't have it, but I can see a market for ships that can make very fast transit times. I doubt every merchant ship is built as cheaply and slowly as possible just because it's cost effective. In the Path of Fury book, there's a race of really strange looking aliens (starfish/spider looking things(? I cannot remember their name atm) that have one hell of a good sense of humor and do not like the Rish at all, but that race spends just as much enthusiasm and energy on their merchant ships as humans do on warships (ie, their merchant ships are just as fast as any warship of the same weight range/size and are fairly well armed and armored.) The result is they are well known for having effective transportation and the fastest merchant vessels out there. And they make it work well. Sometimes, speed IS good and prosperous. Some types of luxury goods might have a time limit for their use, express delivery. The China tea trade clippers made large profits by being fast even if they couldn't carry huge cargoes. The first ones that got from China to England got immense profits by being one of the first, if not the first to market.

I think it is not only a matter of expense of the bigger, better equipment (Military vs. Commercial).

It seems quite evident that one of the reasons why military ships have crew sizes two orders of magnitude bigger than similar displacement merchant vessels is because there is a lot of maintenance that needs to be done to enable military ships to ride the bleeding edge of acceleration, velocity and hyper bands. I think the main difference in running costs between military and commercial vessels is actually crew costs (assuming you discount the cost of actually fighting).

BobfromSydney wrote:I think it is not only a matter of expense of the bigger, better equipment (Military vs. Commercial).

It seems quite evident that one of the reasons why military ships have crew sizes two orders of magnitude bigger than similar displacement merchant vessels is because there is a lot of maintenance that needs to be done to enable military ships to ride the bleeding edge of acceleration, velocity and hyper bands. I think the main difference in running costs between military and commercial vessels is actually crew costs (assuming you discount the cost of actually fighting).

Dispatch boats have tiny crews. So, NO, bleeding edge hyper generators/navigation do not require large crew size. EoH, Dispatch boat had 8? Hmm bad memory, 12?

Crew size militarily is derived from need for unforeseen circumstances, manning/marines more than a single vessel due to seizure, bureaucratic inertia, and damage control.

MaxxQ wrote:

Zakharra wrote:Merchant ships with the streak drives. they'd be able to haul cargoes faster than regular merchies. This means they can get a cargo to the target market faster, it could lower insurance and the cost of shipping, or there could be smaller merchantmen that specialize in speedy delivery (interstellar UPS?). With merchants, you don't necessarily need to have the most cargo of a certain type, you just need to get there before the rest of your competitors.

Merchies will *not* be getting the streak drive. At least, not for centuries or until something else better comes along. Merchies don't get the improved compensators (hell, even *before* the development of improved compensators, merchies were slower than comparably-massed warships), merchies don't get better rad shielding (both of which could contribute to getting the cargo there faster). So, what makes you think they will be getting something even newer and more expensive than those items that are currently available?

Don't forget the speculation on what it is: a brute force approach that is roughly twice the size of a normal hyperdrive (which merchies don't use now, either). I can't count the number of times that it's been mentioned in the books that merchant ships are about cost savings and not speed, hence why they have inferior compensators, rad shielding, and pretty much everything else.

If by "streak drive" you mean the specific piece of equipment that MAlign ships use, then I agree. If Zakharra simply means an improved drive that lets them get up an additional hyper band, then I can see it coming down the pike in a few decades, if not sooner. David's desire to have dirt-cheap interstellar transportation has not repealed the time value of money, the cost of idle inventory that's sitting aboard a ship in transit, the innovation risk of goods that are obsolete by the time they arrive at their destination and the cost of paying crew to play pinochle as their ship wends its way between the stars. There's a lot more to a logistics chain than shipping.

JohnRoth wrote:If by "streak drive" you mean the specific piece of equipment that MAlign ships use, then I agree. If Zakharra simply means an improved drive that lets them get up an additional hyper band, then I can see it coming down the pike in a few decades, if not sooner. David's desire to have dirt-cheap interstellar transportation has not repealed the time value of money, the cost of idle inventory that's sitting aboard a ship in transit, the innovation risk of goods that are obsolete by the time they arrive at their destination and the cost of paying crew to play pinochle as their ship wends its way between the stars. There's a lot more to a logistics chain than shipping.

Maybe, but if so, don't you think current gen freighters would have better compensators and particle shielding for higher n-space velocities as well? Sure, the n-space portion of the trip is pretty darn short compared to the hyper distances travelled, but still, every bit counts. I also have to wonder if the additional cost, reduction in cargo space, and possible enlargement of the crew (and related environmental gear - due to possible additional maintenance/monitoring/running requirements) would be offset enough by the decrease in travel times a streak-like drive would have.

I don't know. All I know is that by your logic, freighters ought to be using civilian versions of milspec hyperdrives, compensators, and shielding - but they don't, except in rare cases such as Bachfisch's ships and Hauptman's passenger liners.

BobfromSydney wrote:I think it is not only a matter of expense of the bigger, better equipment (Military vs. Commercial).

It seems quite evident that one of the reasons why military ships have crew sizes two orders of magnitude bigger than similar displacement merchant vessels is because there is a lot of maintenance that needs to be done to enable military ships to ride the bleeding edge of acceleration, velocity and hyper bands. I think the main difference in running costs between military and commercial vessels is actually crew costs (assuming you discount the cost of actually fighting).

The large crew requirement of military ships is a direct need for several things. To man the weapons and operate the massive sensor suites they have. If you discount the crew needed to man and maintain weapons, and operate/maintain the sensors and such, the drew requirement drops by a lot.

MaxxQ wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:If by "streak drive" you mean the specific piece of equipment that MAlign ships use, then I agree. If Zakharra simply means an improved drive that lets them get up an additional hyper band, then I can see it coming down the pike in a few decades, if not sooner. David's desire to have dirt-cheap interstellar transportation has not repealed the time value of money, the cost of idle inventory that's sitting aboard a ship in transit, the innovation risk of goods that are obsolete by the time they arrive at their destination and the cost of paying crew to play pinochle as their ship wends its way between the stars. There's a lot more to a logistics chain than shipping.

Maybe, but if so, don't you think current gen freighters would have better compensators and particle shielding for higher n-space velocities as well? Sure, the n-space portion of the trip is pretty darn short compared to the hyper distances travelled, but still, every bit counts. I also have to wonder if the additional cost, reduction in cargo space, and possible enlargement of the crew (and related environmental gear - due to possible additional maintenance/monitoring/running requirements) would be offset enough by the decrease in travel times a streak-like drive would have.

I don't know. All I know is that by your logic, freighters ought to be using civilian versions of milspec hyperdrives, compensators, and shielding - but they don't, except in rare cases such as Bachfisch's ships and Hauptman's passenger liners.

John Roth has it right. There's no reason why some merchant ships wouldn't be using the better rad/particle shielding, inertial compensator and such, other than being cheap. It also might be simply, that the military spec hyperdrive engines simply aren't allowed to be used by select authorized users. Hauptman clearly is one such authorized user. His corporations build warships so they have access to the parts.

Another consideration might be a scarcity of spare parts. There's likely a much higher chance of replacement parts for the commercial hyperdrives merchant ships use. But also take this into considerations; Manticore merchant ships likely have better engines, shielding and compensators than most Solarian vessels do, but you don't see the Manty ships downgrading to Solly level of drives and such. It would be cheaper after all to use such, but it's also somewhat slower. So speed is a factor to be taken into consideration. Hence my idea of some commercial vessels using things like the milspec drives or even streak drives. There should be a market for very speedy vessels that can carry decent cargoes -fast-. This wouldn't affect bulk transport which would move by slower ships, but it can mean a nice bottom line for some select companies that do follow this model as they satisfy a niche market.

As it stands now, use of the more costly (higher initial capital costs, maintenance costs and increased crew costs) military grade components (hyper generator, radiation/particle shielding, and inertial compensator) by commercial shipping to decrease passage time and increase shipping speed in the Honorverse is limited to:

The commercial equivalent of dispatch boats, i.e., couriers for news organizations, banking and other financial organizations, mail packets, small private yachts.

High speed passenger liners. May also carry mail or small amounts of freight (at a premium to standard merchantmen).

High speed freight haulers, where the cargo requires fast transit (at a premium to standard merchantmen). Primary examples are ships specializing in transporting perishables.

Any cargo or passengers that don't require fast passage go by standard merchantmen, as that is the most cost-effective way to ship it.

Zakharra wrote:John Roth has it right. There's no reason why some merchant ships wouldn't be using the better rad/particle shielding, inertial compensator and such, other than being cheap. It also might be simply, that the military spec hyperdrive engines simply aren't allowed to be used by select authorized users. Hauptman clearly is one such authorized user. His corporations build warships so they have access to the parts.

Another consideration might be a scarcity of spare parts. There's likely a much higher chance of replacement parts for the commercial hyperdrives merchant ships use. But also take this into considerations; Manticore merchant ships likely have better engines, shielding and compensators than most Solarian vessels do, but you don't see the Manty ships downgrading to Solly level of drives and such. It would be cheaper after all to use such, but it's also somewhat slower. So speed is a factor to be taken into consideration. Hence my idea of some commercial vessels using things like the milspec drives or even streak drives. There should be a market for very speedy vessels that can carry decent cargoes -fast-. This wouldn't affect bulk transport which would move by slower ships, but it can mean a nice bottom line for some select companies that do follow this model as they satisfy a niche market.

First, why would anyone downgrade? That's stupid and costly. If you *already* have a speedier ship than the Sollies, why would you drop to their level? Even new-build, why would you do that?

Second, we both seem to be saying the same thing as far as special, or specialized ships. I just don't think the *general* merchant ships will get anything like a civilian version of a streak drive, or improved rad and particle shielding, or compensators.

Vince summed up the types of ships that might get those improvements pretty well.

Vince wrote:Any cargo or passengers that don't require fast passage go by standard merchantmen, as that is the most cost-effective way to ship it.

Going from Delta to Iota (and streak opens up the next band too) roughly triples your speed. This doesn't just get the cargo there faster, it means one ship can make 3 times as many trips and earn 3 times as much money, plus possibly any incentive from being very fast. So if the ship costs 3 times as much (with a lifetimes of ~100 years) and costs twice as much to operate then going to a streak drive with military screening might well be totally cost effective for every purpose. Or not.