Strange things and UFO's

smr wrote:@The E

I get that unless you see or experience some type of UFO incident it will never be proven in your eyes. Let's talk about circumstantial evidence that is permissible under USA Federal Law. One set of circumstantial evidence proves only a person was their at some scene but add up all circumstantial evidence together it becomes huge wall evidence that can not be denied by person with an open mind. The wall of evidence I mean the millions of pages of various ufo incidents within the US archives not to mention the classified documents that are not put in the US archive but are in highly restrictive area at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds. If someone such as myself can find the video's, the pictures, the testimonials, and/or the physical evidence that says we are being visited from outside our planet, why should I prove to you when you can take the time to do it yourself. Quit being lazy and do the work yourself. Their are hundreds of books written and sourced on the subject with documented evidence that can be verified! I do not know what where you stand on life other planets. First, I believe that life is abundant within this universe. The Earth is not the only planet capable of supporting life but I believe many solar systems support some type of life. We have the evidence of life on other planets and satellites within our solar system!

The E, what type of evidence would it take for you to believe in ET's visiting the Earth. Step up and explain what it would take for you to believe in the existence of ufo's. Many of the alleged incidents are probably home grown back engineered terrestrial based spacecraft. Some of them are hoaxes. Yet their incidents that totally out of this world type of evidence. Are you a total debunker?
If the answer is your total debunker, I can not have a discussion with you for are bad as a zealot of any type religion.

I got to ask, do you work for a tabloid? You write like the sensationalist writers in there with all sorts of !!! after many sentences, calls upon others to explain their disbelief when you provide none yourself; you make mention of millions of secret files of evidence classified and hidden away, then tell others to go and look for those files. How can one do that when the files are you know.. classified and hidden away? Or there's lots of extremely shaky and very blurry video pictures of UFOs as 'evidence' As Hutch puts it; you have then jumped from the "unidentified" straight to "I can't identify it, therefore it is a flying spaceship from another world", which in your minds does identify it. You're always looking at extra-terrestrial reasons to explain something rather than terrestrial ones.

I am believer in life being abundant in the Cosmos. I have never seen a UFO. However, I lived for while in Roswell, NM in my youth. I have heard the stories that never made the news. Second, my father and brother both have seen UFO's while flying. My dad was Captain for a major airline and the golden rule was Never talk about the Phenomenon publicly! This phenomenon has been around since our inception on this planet. It's on the walls of caves to being in the books that were considered for the bible. The book of Enoch shows that they (whatever they are) have been here longer than we believe. Their is a painting in Germany depicting an overhead aerial battle between competing factions of aliens in 1500 or 1600's. One of the shuttle missions, an astronaut reports on the public radio frequency that the visitors are back and then nothing more. (Well, they switched over to the military encrypted frequency!) A few astronauts have spoken of the "visitors!" Whatever that really means, we know that most governments lie when it's in their best interests.

I believe their is other planets in this universe that contain life. My conclusions are:

1) The Universe is teeming with Life.

2) The Earth is being visited!

3) The information is being suppressed!

4) I think the government(s) would really love to know why this is happening.

5) The government will never admit to existence of extra terrestrial life.

6) Many UFO's are actually terrestrial based back engineered crafts.

7) Many these incidents are hoax's but some these incidents can not be disproved.

Zakharra wrote:

smr wrote:@The E

I get that unless you see or experience some type of UFO incident it will never be proven in your eyes. Let's talk about circumstantial evidence that is permissible under USA Federal Law. One set of circumstantial evidence proves only a person was their at some scene but add up all circumstantial evidence together it becomes huge wall evidence that can not be denied by person with an open mind. The wall of evidence I mean the millions of pages of various ufo incidents within the US archives not to mention the classified documents that are not put in the US archive but are in highly restrictive area at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds. If someone such as myself can find the video's, the pictures, the testimonials, and/or the physical evidence that says we are being visited from outside our planet, why should I prove to you when you can take the time to do it yourself. Quit being lazy and do the work yourself. Their are hundreds of books written and sourced on the subject with documented evidence that can be verified! I do not know what where you stand on life other planets. First, I believe that life is abundant within this universe. The Earth is not the only planet capable of supporting life but I believe many solar systems support some type of life. We have the evidence of life on other planets and satellites within our solar system!

The E, what type of evidence would it take for you to believe in ET's visiting the Earth. Step up and explain what it would take for you to believe in the existence of ufo's. Many of the alleged incidents are probably home grown back engineered terrestrial based spacecraft. Some of them are hoaxes. Yet their incidents that totally out of this world type of evidence. Are you a total debunker?
If the answer is your total debunker, I can not have a discussion with you for are bad as a zealot of any type religion.

I got to ask, do you work for a tabloid? You write like the sensationalist writers in there with all sorts of !!! after many sentences, calls upon others to explain their disbelief when you provide none yourself; you make mention of millions of secret files of evidence classified and hidden away, then tell others to go and look for those files. How can one do that when the files are you know.. classified and hidden away? Or there's lots of extremely shaky and very blurry video pictures of UFOs as 'evidence' As Hutch puts it; you have then jumped from the "unidentified" straight to "I can't identify it, therefore it is a flying spaceship from another world", which in your minds does identify it. You're always looking at extra-terrestrial reasons to explain something rather than terrestrial ones.

So what I'm getting here is that belief in UFOs and ancient civilizations is a religious thing for you. As such, there's just no point in discussing it with you, as such beliefs are not disprovable by facts. For that matter, your belief in a conspiracy to suppress the truth makes it impossible for you to actually find the truth, since any piece of evidence against a conspiracy, or against visitations from Aliens just feeds back into your belief that a conspiracy exists.

Basically, the problem is that your starting point is the unshakable belief that Aliens exist and are visiting us; trying to prove that they don't thus becomes an exercise in proving a negative in your mind. The biases inherent in human cognition then cause you to seek out evidence for your beliefs, and to give them a higher weight than evidence against them. This in turn causes you to dismiss the procedures and instruments of proper science, since they seem unable to confirm something you accept as truth.

I do not have the answers but something strange has been going on for a very long time. Let's talk facts, their are millions or billions of galaxies within this universe. So, I believe life is abundant within the galaxy just by statistics. As a result, we have trillions of solar systems that could possibly support life. Heck, we have evidence that life was at one time abundant on Mars. Which means that life is probably abundant throughout the universe.

The E, we were having such nice discussion. Then you had to ruin by attacking rather than discussing. First rule in discussion is to leave out the rhetoric. By using adjectives such as conspiracy, religious thing and suppression of the truth. I come from a viewpoint that statistically life more than likely exists outside our solar system. It's just basic mathematics and quantitative analysis. Two, I come from a place that had a unusual incident translated an alien crash site! Irregardless of your beliefs and your reality, something really weird has happened at Roswell. Just a hint, the incident started at White Sands. Supposedly they hit with some type of EMP weapon. Which caused the main ship to crash just outside Roswell. The escape pod if I recall correctly crashed down outside of Alamagordo, NM. At the time, this base was where the US based it's nuclear bombers and it was located where we did the rocket research aka White Sands. The E, I get that discussing life that does not originate from Earth violates your own world view and is extremely scary! That means were not the top dogs within this universe because as in life their is probably a meaner, badder, and more advanced species out their in the universe. I get that I can not prove to your satisfaction that life exists outside our solar system and I'm OK with your viewpoint. No harm No foul but the weird thing is that my position seems to terrify you. The E, I free admit I have never seen a UFO and I could be totally wrong only time will tell. In this discussion, I only have to be right once and unfortunately for your side you have to be right every single time.

The E, here's some homework prove or disprove the Phoenix Light Incident. Disprove all radio communications that was recorded between the FAA flight controllers and aircrews concerning the UFO's. What about thousands of people that saw them. They were not flares!

The E wrote:So what I'm getting here is that belief in UFOs and ancient civilizations is a religious thing for you. As such, there's just no point in discussing it with you, as such beliefs are not disprovable by facts. For that matter, your belief in a conspiracy to suppress the truth makes it impossible for you to actually find the truth, since any piece of evidence against a conspiracy, or against visitations from Aliens just feeds back into your belief that a conspiracy exists.

Basically, the problem is that your starting point is the unshakable belief that Aliens exist and are visiting us; trying to prove that they don't thus becomes an exercise in proving a negative in your mind. The biases inherent in human cognition then cause you to seek out evidence for your beliefs, and to give them a higher weight than evidence against them. This in turn causes you to dismiss the procedures and instruments of proper science, since they seem unable to confirm something you accept as truth.

I was going to depart this conversation as the E had pretty well summed up my thoughts, but there are a couple of things in your post, smr, that I must address before I close--and hopefully yet you see when the E and I, among others, consider this so skeptically.

smr wrote:I do not have the answers but something strange has been going on for a very long time. Let's talk facts, their are millions or billions of galaxies within this universe.

Agreed, that is a fact.

So, I believe life is abundant within the galaxy just by statistics. As a result, we have trillions of solar systems that could possibly support life.

That is not a fact. That is speculation via math.

Heck, we have evidence that life was at one time abundant on Mars.

We have facts that indicate Life was probably possible at one time on Mars. We do not have facts that it did have life.

Which means that life is probably abundant throughout the universe.

Unsupported conclusion.

The E, we were having such nice discussion. Then you had to ruin by attacking rather than discussing. First rule in discussion is to leave out the rhetoric. By using adjectives such as conspiracy, religious thing and suppression of the truth.

I would note that you have been the one using the term 'I believe".

I come from a viewpoint that statistically life more than likely exists outside our solar system. It's just basic mathematics and quantitative analysis.

Neither the E or I argues about the possibility of life elsewhere in the Universe. We are in agreement with you there. Where we part ways is that said life is busily buzzing about this planet.

Two, I come from a place that had a unusual incident translated an alien crash site! Irregardless of your beliefs and your reality, something really weird has happened at Roswell.

Well, that something happened is a fact. That it was of an extra-terrestial nature is still subject to debate and is definitely in the 'not proven' category.

Just a hint, the incident started at White Sands. Supposedly they hit with some type of EMP weapon. Which caused the main ship to crash just outside Roswell. The escape pod if I recall correctly crashed down outside of Alamagordo, NM. At the time, this base was where the US based it's nuclear bombers and it was located where we did the rocket research aka White Sands.

I believe you are incorrect about the stationing of bombers there (with missile tests going on a regular basis, it would have crimped flight activities). The nearest AFB is Holloman, which is more for tactical aircraft than strategic ones.

The E, I get that discussing life that does not originate from Earth violates your own world view and is extremely scary! That means were not the top dogs within this universe because as in life their is probably a meaner, badder, and more advanced species out their in the universe.

Not at all. The E and I can readily discuss the possiblity of life, perhaps advanced life, in the Cosmos. But when you move the discussion to said hypothetical life visiting the Earth repeatedly, then our skeptic side comes out.

I get that I can not prove to your satisfaction that life exists outside our solar system and I'm OK with your viewpoint. No harm No foul but the weird thing is that my position seems to terrify you. The E, I free admit I have never seen a UFO and I could be totally wrong only time will tell. In this discussion, I only have to be right once and unfortunately for your side you have to be right every single time.

Again, the discussion is not if life exists elsewhere in the Cosmos. The point of debate is if said life has developed to the point of crossing unimaginable distances to our planet so it can crash-land in New Mexico, mutilate cattle, and probe our anus (all claims at various times). THOSE are what folks like the E and I take issue with.

The E, here's some homework prove or disprove the Phoenix Light Incident. Disprove all radio communications that was recorded between the FAA flight controllers and aircrews concerning the UFO's. What about thousands of people that saw them. They were not flares!

Well, the second icident almost certainly was, albeit the first one is a bit more puzzling.

But again, the onus is always upon the proponent to provide indisputable proof of something of alien origin. It is not upon the skeptic to provide said proof, or in saying 1 in a 1000 events are in the realm of 'unidentified' this somehow equates to an alien visitation.

One last point: I'd love to be proven wrong and that there are aliens out there and visiting our pale blue dot in the Cosmos; but I and others will need better and more compleling proof than what we have seen to date to be convinced.

smr wrote:I do not have the answers but something strange has been going on for a very long time. Let's talk facts, their are millions or billions of galaxies within this universe. So, I believe life is abundant within the galaxy just by statistics. As a result, we have trillions of solar systems that could possibly support life. Heck, we have evidence that life was at one time abundant on Mars. Which means that life is probably abundant throughout the universe.

I am not disputing that. Statistically speaking, the probability that there is life outside of our solar system approaches certainty; The universe is just too large for anything else.

Whether or not said life is capable of interacting with us here on Earth is a different discussion though, one that has many more caveats attached to it.

The E, we were having such nice discussion. Then you had to ruin by attacking rather than discussing. First rule in discussion is to leave out the rhetoric. By using adjectives such as conspiracy, religious thing and suppression of the truth.

3) The information is being suppressed!

4) I think the government(s) would really love to know why this is happening.

5) The government will never admit to existence of extra terrestrial life.

Pretty sure you were bringing these things in first. In any case, the fact that you were articulating your position in this manner tells me what kind of position you're coming from, and it just isn't one that can be interacted with using the tools of scientific inquiry.

Irregardless of your beliefs and your reality, something really weird has happened at Roswell. Just a hint, the incident started at White Sands. Supposedly they hit with some type of EMP weapon. Which caused the main ship to crash just outside Roswell. The escape pod if I recall correctly crashed down outside of Alamagordo, NM. At the time, this base was where the US based it's nuclear bombers and it was located where we did the rocket research aka White Sands.

From your limited POV, this is undoubtedly true. Noone here has full knowledge of what happened back then, what we do have is decades and decades of speculation and pop culture elaboration on it, and some of those stories are just so compelling that you want to believe in them. But belief is not proof.

The E, I get that discussing life that does not originate from Earth violates your own world view and is extremely scary! That means were not the top dogs within this universe because as in life their is probably a meaner, badder, and more advanced species out their in the universe.

I have absolutely no problem with that (Aside: If you want to read an absolutely extraordinary version of the first contact story, check out Blindsight by Peter Watts. It's one of the most thought-provoking novels I have read on that topic in recent years). What I do have a problem with is the blind belief that those species are coming to visit. Is it possible? Sure. But so is the existance of flying pigs. Both phenomena are extraordinary claims, and as such require extraordinary evidence, and the sum of the evidence for alien visitations is extremely slim, with very very little to give credence to any given account.

I get that I can not prove to your satisfaction that life exists outside our solar system and I'm OK with your viewpoint. No harm No foul but the weird thing is that my position seems to terrify you. The E, I free admit I have never seen a UFO and I could be totally wrong only time will tell. In this discussion, I only have to be right once and unfortunately for your side you have to be right every single time.

Sure, you only have to be right once. But so far, that "once" hasn't happened, and all indications point to it never happening at all. Once you are right, I'll happily join you in welcoming our new overlords, but until then, I see it as my duty as a rational human being to point out deficiencies in your theories. Remember, in science, a theory is only as strong as the questions it can answer, and so far? UFO theories are very weak on the "answering questions" side.

The E, here's some homework prove or disprove the Phoenix Light Incident. Disprove all radio communications that was recorded between the FAA flight controllers and aircrews concerning the UFO's. What about thousands of people that saw them. They were not flares!

So you say. So say people presumably knowledgeable about airplanes. But that isn't proof. Eyewitness reports aren't reliable.

Not to mention the photographic and video evidence that was taken. Of course the flight crews information is suspect and the visual confirmation of ufo sightings by the phoenix tower means nothing. Like I said...you don't believe and I believe. What about the radar sightings, they were steering commercial flights around this sighting. They watched the ufo's disappear from the radar screens when whatever turned off the lights in the sky. The Phoenix tower called the local airbase and verified that they had nothing flying! Two weeks later, the military claimed they were flares....over a populated area. The military commander would be out of a job...real quickly! Now, the commercial flight crews never talked about on the record. However, the radio transcripts and radar logs mysteriously disappeared. I know it's just like IRS emails and hard drives were accidentally destroyed. Someone is sending a message. Why were the flight crews never beached? They were obviously crazy! Why was not the FAA flight controllers and tower controllers not beached? Where are the remains of the flares? Remember this was a populated area!

a) someone has terrestrial based flying craft that we are calling ufo's.

or

b) someone has extra-terrestrial based flying craft that we are calling ufo's.

or

c) combination of a & b

or

d) multiple mass hallicunations around the world

Two days later the governor of Arizona had one his political flunkies dress up as an alien. He was told to do this stunt by people within the White House. The governor has regretted this incident. Why? The good people of Arizona refused to reelect him. Why? He was caught lying and mocking them. This guy was a rising star within the Democratic party and now he is unelectable to any type of office. He was being groomed as a possible Presidential contender!

What is the truth? Ahhh! That's the key question and how do you trash all the evidence. I know it's not scientifically provable but it is. The average person does not have access to the evidence. Now here comes detractors...it's a conspiracy theory or the writer is delusional. Well my response, they are running a really good counter intelligence operation.

The E wrote:

smr wrote:I do not have the answers but something strange has been going on for a very long time. Let's talk facts, their are millions or billions of galaxies within this universe. So, I believe life is abundant within the galaxy just by statistics. As a result, we have trillions of solar systems that could possibly support life. Heck, we have evidence that life was at one time abundant on Mars. Which means that life is probably abundant throughout the universe.

I am not disputing that. Statistically speaking, the probability that there is life outside of our solar system approaches certainty; The universe is just too large for anything else.

Whether or not said life is capable of interacting with us here on Earth is a different discussion though, one that has many more caveats attached to it.

The E, we were having such nice discussion. Then you had to ruin by attacking rather than discussing. First rule in discussion is to leave out the rhetoric. By using adjectives such as conspiracy, religious thing and suppression of the truth.

3) The information is being suppressed!

4) I think the government(s) would really love to know why this is happening.

5) The government will never admit to existence of extra terrestrial life.

Pretty sure you were bringing these things in first. In any case, the fact that you were articulating your position in this manner tells me what kind of position you're coming from, and it just isn't one that can be interacted with using the tools of scientific inquiry.

Irregardless of your beliefs and your reality, something really weird has happened at Roswell. Just a hint, the incident started at White Sands. Supposedly they hit with some type of EMP weapon. Which caused the main ship to crash just outside Roswell. The escape pod if I recall correctly crashed down outside of Alamagordo, NM. At the time, this base was where the US based it's nuclear bombers and it was located where we did the rocket research aka White Sands.

From your limited POV, this is undoubtedly true. Noone here has full knowledge of what happened back then, what we do have is decades and decades of speculation and pop culture elaboration on it, and some of those stories are just so compelling that you want to believe in them. But belief is not proof.

The E, I get that discussing life that does not originate from Earth violates your own world view and is extremely scary! That means were not the top dogs within this universe because as in life their is probably a meaner, badder, and more advanced species out their in the universe.

I have absolutely no problem with that (Aside: If you want to read an absolutely extraordinary version of the first contact story, check out Blindsight by Peter Watts. It's one of the most thought-provoking novels I have read on that topic in recent years). What I do have a problem with is the blind belief that those species are coming to visit. Is it possible? Sure. But so is the existance of flying pigs. Both phenomena are extraordinary claims, and as such require extraordinary evidence, and the sum of the evidence for alien visitations is extremely slim, with very very little to give credence to any given account.

I get that I can not prove to your satisfaction that life exists outside our solar system and I'm OK with your viewpoint. No harm No foul but the weird thing is that my position seems to terrify you. The E, I free admit I have never seen a UFO and I could be totally wrong only time will tell. In this discussion, I only have to be right once and unfortunately for your side you have to be right every single time.

Sure, you only have to be right once. But so far, that "once" hasn't happened, and all indications point to it never happening at all. Once you are right, I'll happily join you in welcoming our new overlords, but until then, I see it as my duty as a rational human being to point out deficiencies in your theories. Remember, in science, a theory is only as strong as the questions it can answer, and so far? UFO theories are very weak on the "answering questions" side.

The E, here's some homework prove or disprove the Phoenix Light Incident. Disprove all radio communications that was recorded between the FAA flight controllers and aircrews concerning the UFO's. What about thousands of people that saw them. They were not flares!

So you say. So say people presumably knowledgeable about airplanes. But that isn't proof. Eyewitness reports aren't reliable.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/11/mysterious-radio-burst-detected-from-deep-space-but-scientists-have-no-handle-on-what-they-are/

I'm hoping that this is true but I'm afraid that the deep space radio signals will be proven false.

The Belgium flying triangles that NATO F16's chased these were obviously what? Hallucinations? If they were advanced aircraft from the USA why would NATO chase them. If from China or Russia why would China or Russia still only use conventional aircraft?

You could just deny it all. Mass hallucinations. Crazy NATO F16 pilots on stand by. Flight towers ready to send F16 interceptors after clouds, Venus and hub caps.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307717089/ref ... 2Fbooks%2F

If you are too cheap to buy it ask your library to order a copy for you. They will bring it in for free for you to read. At least that is how it works around here.

SMR, you do seem to be an intelligent and good person, and I don't want to hurt your feelings, but have you considered that you may have a somewhat credulous nature?

From previous threads you say that you are a "born again" evangelical Christian, believe in previous lost civilisations, and believe in visits from star travelling aliens. All or some of these beliefs may be true, but none of them have actual verifiable scientific physical proof. Nastier, more cynical people like me require proof to believe.

I have had a first hand experience of an Unidentified Flying Object, that didn't match anything I could conceive as coming from earth technology, however I would need much more evidence to believe in alien visits. Incidentally I wasn't analy probed, so that may explain my scepticism.