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New Manty ship ideas.

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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by KNick   » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:21 pm

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Welcome to the forums, fries.

Some numbers to keep in mind about the results of Raging Justice. If I recall correctly, the SLN fired approximately 54,000 missiles in their initial salvo. They also fired a couple of salvos of approximately 13,000 missiles for a total of somewhere around 80,000 missiles. Those 80,000 missiles killed just over 2,000 RMN personnel, or 1 dead for each fourty missiles fired. However, with a crew of 10, that represents 200 LACs, or 1 ship lost for each four hundred missiles fired. That is a hit rate of .25%. In other words, the combination of LACs and SD anti-missile defenses stopped roughly 99.75% of all the missiles fired. Not a bad average.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Dafmeister   » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:47 pm

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Another thing to bear in mind regarding Second Manticore. The range between Filaretta's fleet and Honor's task force was down to 12.3 million kilometres before Honor started to spring the mousetrap. With Filaretta closing at over 5,000 kps at that point and accelerating at 3.3 kps^2, by the time the missiles started to fly the range was probably under 12 million. By modern Alliance standards, that's practically knife-fighting range.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:51 am

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Hi Dafmeister,

Possibly down to ~8.5 M km actually, given there's over 1530 words spoken by Honor, Filareta and his staff, for around 25 minutes after the trap is sprung; given all the long words being used, with plenty of verbal pauses.

So if Filareta didn't order deceleration [there's no textev] 11th Fleet would have closed ~3,750,000 further km if I'm doing the math right.

Granted Filareta was much smarter than Crandall or Byng, that's why the MAlign had to kill him, so I expect he did order deceleration, which might have almost cancelled his forward momentum, given all the pauses etc.

The fact that the broadside missile tubes may have been in range implies there wasn't a deceleration order to carry the broadside launched missiles 8.5 M Km, so take your pick, either Filareta forgot or hoped to close so he could at least take out Tango Two and HH.

HH had 2000 LAC's as her missile defense, and if the HoS is correct that the Katana doesn't have any aft CM launchers like the Shrike-B and Ferret, which seems absurd given the hard lessons learned at Second Hancock, and the fact the Grayson's aren't that silly, they ought to easily have the fire control for more than 5; if they are split 50/50 then the 8 CM launchers of the Shrike-B and the Katana's 5 mean they could pump out 13,000 CM's and Viper's every 8 seconds.

5 launches would deal with the 51,240 pod launched MAlign missiles, at an under 80% kill rate, while another full volley would handle most of each broadside launch [3000 more in a second volley should have been cleanup], which may have petered out after a couple or four salvo's, when whoever was now in command realized a salvo every 35+ seconds wasn't going to accomplish anything either and tried to surrender, although I don't think the SLN chain of command had realized what had happened to Filareta in time to stop the avalanche.

BTW, even if his flag bridge had stopped transmitting, there should have been some kind of commo logs of attempts to raise him or his flag captain by his deputies, and his flag captain reporting the flag bridge was out of communication or something.

Figuring 200 MDM's per BF SD would mean 85,400 GA missiles launched; given the rather short range did they bother with Apollo's?

Full power non-Apollo's would work just fine at that range, taking less than 137 seconds to close since the BF is still decelerating.

But since the whole point of having the RHN there was to use their missiles to preserve the RMN's [and the GSN's], Lester should have actually launched that salvo.

211 LAC's were lost in the melee, mainly because they were the only target the BF missiles could see in all the chaos and clutter.

At ~20,000 tons each, that's less than 100 tons per SLN missile, without adding the broadside missiles which might have doubled the SLN total and reduced the tonnage rate to below 50 tons per missile.

By comparison the GA averaged ~34,000 tons per missile perhaps almost 830 times that ratio.

While the SLN still doesn't know that, a thousand to one casualty ratio ought to get a lot of SLN spacers thinking about their own survival, ie how to avoid the same result.

Given Saltash and Zunker, besides second BoM, just how hard or willing are SLN, even FF crews going to be to engage the RMN? ;)

L


Dafmeister wrote:Another thing to bear in mind regarding Second Manticore. The range between Filaretta's fleet and Honor's task force was down to 12.3 million kilometres before Honor started to spring the mousetrap. With Filaretta closing at over 5,000 kps at that point and accelerating at 3.3 kps^2, by the time the missiles started to fly the range was probably under 12 million. By modern Alliance standards, that's practically knife-fighting range.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Dafmeister   » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:06 am

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Don't forget, the official Solarian government/SLN line is that Honor conned Filaretta into scuttling his pods and then shot him to pieces. All Manticoran logs showing otherwise are fakes.

[Edit]

On the subject of who should have fired, saying that Tourville's fleet should have done the shooting falls into the same trap as Honor's suggestion at the after-action conference that she should have just taken Filaretta's fire and given them another chance to surrender. If you recall, Tom Thiesman takes her head off at the knees for even thinking it, and quite rightly. According too all the intel they had, even the biggest salvo 11th Fleet could throw would have minimal effect against RMN defensive capabilities.

However, according to the best intel at the time, Haven didn't have MDMs, SD(P)s, CLACS or workable LACs to put in them in the year leading up to Operation Thunderbolt. According to the best intel at the time, the fleet defending Yeltsin's Star was being reduced in the run-up to the First Havenite War, not reinforced with four SD(P) squadrons from Home Fleet. According to the best intel at the time (sadly deleted from the text of At All Costs by mistake, but stated by RFC on several threads, including the recent 'Battle of Manticore' thread), Apollo didn't have enough range for 8th Fleet to range of 5th Fleet at First Manticore. According to the best intel at the time, the Manticoran Alliance's defenders were hopelessly on the back foot prior to Operation Bagration, not planning to unleash Buttercup on Barnett and mousetrap Bagration at Grendelsbane. According to the best intel at the time, the Protector's Own weren't within 200 light years of Sidemore Station when Operation Thunderbolt went in, nor was a Grayson fleet making best speed to Trevor's Star.

The best intel available has been shown, on occasion, to be about as wrong as the Flat Earth Society's manifesto, and pretty much everyone in the room for that conference has been on the wrong end of it at some point or other in the preceding 20 years. Honor Harrington, Thomas Thiesman et al didn't get were they are today, or even live until today, by letting people shoot at them unopposed. Yes, there's no question that Tourville's fleet could have pulled Eleventh Fleet apart, but in the time it took for his less accurate, non-Apollo missiles to the job (chasing Eleventh Fleet down, btw, not coming straight at them along their own vector, with all that implies for flight times and closing velocities), how many literally irreplaceable Apollo-capable SD(P)s could have been destroyed or damaged badly enough to need the repair yards that no longer existed, if the best intel turned out to be wrong this time?
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by munroburton   » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:01 am

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There's no indication whether Grand Fleet used Apollo missiles or drew from stockpiles of standard MK23s(or system defense pod equivalents). Heck, given the ranges quoted in this thread(as low as 8.5mkm), they could've been using their oldest inventory, the original SDM pods left over from before Ghost Rider. They did just fine against old-style Peep walls of battle and the SLN is the oldest of them all.

MK23s alone(and Havenite equivalent) are overkill. There's no reason to waste Apollo on units that are probably individually as effective at missile combat as Haven's battleships. Apollo won't kill them more quickly.

And despite Apollo's use at Spindle, its FTL capability wasn't revealed. That's an ace up the GA's sleeve - by the time the core worlds build their own MDM navies, the GA might have Apollo-II up and running - FTL transceivers in every single missile!
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by SWM   » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:41 am

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lyonheart wrote:BTW, even if his flag bridge had stopped transmitting, there should have been some kind of commo logs of attempts to raise him or his flag captain by his deputies, and his flag captain reporting the flag bridge was out of communication or something.


There were only a couple minutes from the time the Flag bridge was destroyed and when the entire Flagship was destroyed. In the middle of a desperate battle. The battle plan was already set. Once battle begins, the Flag captain is primarily responsible for running his own ship in the battle. There may not have been time for the Flag captain to realize that the Flag bridge was out of commission.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:04 pm

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Super Battle Cruiser.

8.63 mega tons
100% accel: 568g
80% accel: 454g

Broadside: 50 Mk23 tubes. 24 SD Grasers. 84 CM, 62 PD.

Chase: 6 Apollo tubes (Roland Mk16 style), 6 SD Grasers. 18 CM, 22 PD.

No keyhole.

Telemetry similar to Honor Harrington I class SD(P).

Bottom mount Highlander II/III LAC's. 12 of them. 3 wide 4 long...
(Follow on post to remind you what the Highlander II/III is)
4 - 6 shuttles. In shuttle bays, either Assault shuttles or Mk30+ Condors.

Use a Keyhole III Roland DD-KH for handoff telemetry.

Fast enough to catch eventually any current Sollie ship and any 20 year or older ship.

SBC packs the punch of a SD(P) with Apollo. (Slower firing rate for follow on salvos)

Defenses and offenses of the Invictus plus a Dozen LAC that have twice plus the missile load of a Katana and twice+ the number of rapid launchers, plus a surprise or two.

Covers over tubes / grasers on the broadsides. Why? Added protection plus with the covers in place the SBC looks like a large Freighter. Good for its other uses outside the wall of battle. Reduces crew loads when not using the broadsides. Escort during peace time, customs duties, etc....

LAC bottom mounted, designed to be so with shuttle docking bays. The SBC is a light LAC carrier that can stand in the Wall of Battle. Unlike a CLAC. In peace time it can also service LAC and or deploy them around a system, even a hostile one.

Fast enough to do BC duties and hunt down any and all ships. Any single ship can be killed by this ship. Even an SD(P), wouldn't be easy going up against an Invictus but it could be done. Can a Nike do that?

Can also do light ship duties similar to a CA or CL. And planetary assault better than a Kammerling. Similar command capabilities to a Benji the great or Samothrace.

Mk23 tubes can also fire Mk16's. Apollo tubes can fire, Apollo, Vipers nest / CM nested, Mk23 or Mk16. The Vipers nest allows a Single long range attack against dozens of LAC without wasting Mk23's on them. A Single Salvo of Viper nest can fire Quad stacked 384 vipers at LAC 70-90 million klicks away.

Does the Super Battle Cruiser do it all? Yes that is the point of a wall of battle support ship. And a ship that can be configured from the bridge do continue doing peacetime civilian duties. Small crew it is a Super Roland / Saganami. Need a Battle Cruiser hunter killer, it is that to. Freighter escort with AMC abilities, yup! Small CLAC, even has that covered. LAC hunter, does that too.
Adds defense to the Wall of battle so it can survive as well as everyone else.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:10 pm

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Highlander II / III LAC.
See below or delete!
Last edited by Lord Skimper on Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Vince   » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:09 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:Super Battle Cruiser.

Highlander II / III LAC.

Skimper, quit flogging deceased equines. The Society of Prevention of Cruelty to Deceased Animals takes a dim view of such things. Or are you into necrofensthering?
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:44 am

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Highlander II / III LAC.

The idea follows from the traditional design of a small ship LAC. Using an LAC about 2.5 times larger than a Shrike design LAC family. Using twin fission piles with Six chase CM launchers similar to the Roland DD design or Katana.

Roland level Laser on the broadside with PD clusters. A Double plus Katana with energy armaments. Not a Shrike Graser, but something more useful for wall of battle defense and customs duties in the civil times.

Compensator
100% : 823g
80%: 658g

20+ crew and a docking conning tower to facilitate docking on the bottom of the SBC.

Also in place of the one shot semi internal Cell / pods. The Highlander would mount a CM pod / Cell two on each broadside. 24 per cell for an improved CM saturation on initial launch. Each Highlander carrying 96 total CM in semi internal Cells. Plus the Katana Viper / CM launchers. With 4 LAC light PD for each broadside.
With 12 Highlander III per SBC, and 12 Viper / CM launchers and 96 CM in Cells. Each SBC would bring first wave defense of 204 CM plus 144 fast Viper / CM, plus 1152 cell based CM. More than a CLAC full of Katana.
Last edited by Lord Skimper on Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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