Long term consequences of the League's collapse

You send the TIY R&D staff to Bolthole.

The secret components, micro fusion, grav pinch tech, that are super secret are not built there. It allows these guys to still feel welcome and useful.

Only some of them will sign up. You will have to take their families as well otherwise you will only get a few.

BobfromSydney wrote:I suppose quite a lot of the SDFs that have not planned ahead for the SLN break up have ships that are "equipped for but not with" better modern weapons and missiles.

Getting those better weapons, sensors, decoys and missiles installed before the security environment disintegrates will be quite a challenge I think.

I agree that the most important factor will be political will - being able to authorise funding for a full fleet upgrade on an emergency basis would not be easy in most polities.

The other factor is technological capability. Launching an effective military R&D apparatus from a cold start would be a really big challenge. I think the transtellar defence contractors will be receiving more contracts than they know what to do with very soon.

I have a feeling that they will permit their most basic designs to be produced locally under contract and produce their more advanced models themselves.

I also imagine that their primary shipyards will be full of ships in various states of construction most of the time as well. Not just manufactured for the SLN, but SDF's as well. Maybe there will be a start of WWI situation where Great Britain commandeered all the battleships it was building for other countries that were still in dock.

There is one very good reason for the transtellars not to do that though - trust. If they breach a contract in such a fashion they might not be getting many contracts in the future.

Where do people keep getting the idea the SL and its systems had advanced tech it hasn't used yet in its ships? David Weber seems to be fairly consistent in his books that the SL is -not- a place R&D really takes place anymore because of severe institutional complacency and arrogance. Beowolf and the systems that will be a part of the RF, and the Maya sector (kind of) are about the only places that has access to actual advanced technology, and that only because of help from the outside. None of them have really done any of the R&D themselves. for the most part, the SL literally doesn't have any new tech unless someone gives it to them (Mesa or Technodyne). That seems to be the main thrust of Admiral Kingsford in ART, is that the SLN cannot improve/update their ships because it doesn't have anything to improve/update them with, and the systems that build the SLN's ships would have had access to the best technology the SL has. You can probably count on one hand the number of systems in the SL that have access to better tech they developed themselves. The transstellars seem not to be the sort that does a lot of R&D and until recently, it was done haphazardly. It's again the institutional arrogance the SL and SLN show to others. Their technology simply has to be better because they are the SL.

Zakharra wrote: Where do people keep getting the idea the SL and its systems had advanced tech it hasn't used yet in its ships? David Weber seems to be fairly consistent in his books that the SL is -not- a place R&D really takes place anymore because of severe institutional complacency and arrogance. Beowolf and the systems that will be a part of the RF, and the Maya sector (kind of) are about the only places that has access to actual advanced technology, and that only because of help from the outside. None of them have really done any of the R&D themselves. for the most part, the SL literally doesn't have any new tech unless someone gives it to them (Mesa or Technodyne). That seems to be the main thrust of Admiral Kingsford in ART, is that the SLN cannot improve/update their ships because it doesn't have anything to improve/update them with, and the systems that build the SLN's ships would have had access to the best technology the SL has. You can probably count on one hand the number of systems in the SL that have access to better tech they developed themselves. The transstellars seem not to be the sort that does a lot of R&D and until recently, it was done haphazardly. It's again the institutional arrogance the SL and SLN show to others. Their technology simply has to be better because they are the SL.

Zakharra, Mr Weber said nothing of the kind. Firstly, he did say that several of the SDFs have more advanced military technology than the SLN, but he never specified precisely which SDFs he was talking about. Secondly, he never specified that it was only Beowulf's and the RF's various SDFs that were more advanced. Thirdly, he DID write in one of the books (although I cannot remember which) that the SLN had at least SOME improved military hardware that have not as yet been deployed, although, once again, he never did specify what kind of hardware he was talking about (and he gave the distinct impression that it wasn't all that much of an improvement on the SLN's existing deployed hardware).

Zakharra wrote: Where do people keep getting the idea the SL and its systems had advanced tech it hasn't used yet in its ships? David Weber seems to be fairly consistent in his books that the SL is -not- a place R&D really takes place anymore because of severe institutional complacency and arrogance.

That comes from the fact that most of the SLN is around 200 years old. The SLN is highly conservative and strongly affected by "Not Invented Here" syndrome; consequently, they stay with "tried and true" systems and bring new technology into service only slowly.

The member system of the Solarian League aren't necessarily as conservative as the SLN -- especially Battle Fleet -- and don't have the huge investment in several thousand SDs to maintain. Individual System Defense Forces can upgrade or build new ships with newer technology without having to bring a huge fleet up to a common standard.

The general run of civilian tech in the Solarian League is much higher than the Solarian League Navy is willing to invest in.

Technodyne has a fairly active R&D section, and presumably the other SLN suppliers do as well. Technodyne provided the pod launched system defense missiles in Monica, and the assassin RDs used in Operation Hassan (the assassination of PM Cromarty) was developed by a solarian defense contractor and declined by the SLN as impractical -- the RMN adapted the concept to create Mistletoe.

R&D does go on, albeit at a much slower pace than the RMN and RHN have been driven by war, but the SLN simply hasn't been buying the fruits of independent R&D because the SLN didn't think of it first.

Weird Harold wrote:That comes from the fact that most of the SLN is around 200 years old. The SLN is highly conservative and strongly affected by "Not Invented Here" syndrome; consequently, they stay with "tried and true" systems and bring new technology into service only slowly.

The member system of the Solarian League aren't necessarily as conservative as the SLN -- especially Battle Fleet -- and don't have the huge investment in several thousand SDs to maintain. Individual System Defense Forces can upgrade or build new ships with newer technology without having to bring a huge fleet up to a common standard.

The general run of civilian tech in the Solarian League is much higher than the Solarian League Navy is willing to invest in.

Technodyne has a fairly active R&D section, and presumably the other SLN suppliers do as well. Technodyne provided the pod launched system defense missiles in Monica, and the assassin RDs used in Operation Hassan (the assassination of PM Cromarty) was developed by a solarian defense contractor and declined by the SLN as impractical -- the RMN adapted the concept to create Mistletoe.

R&D does go on, albeit at a much slower pace than the RMN and RHN have been driven by war, but the SLN simply hasn't been buying the fruits of independent R&D because the SLN didn't think of it first.

I have the distinct impression that the SLN has a tendency to outsource most of whatever R&D it does undertake to a handful of private subcontractors, instead of doing so itself like Manticore or Haven do.

hanuman wrote:I have the distinct impression that the SLN has a tendency to outsource most of whatever R&D it does undertake to a handful of private subcontractors, instead of doing so itself like Manticore or Haven do.

The evidence is somewhat contradictory; the
Fleet 2000 upgrade was likely subcontracted, (I can't imagine even incompetent spacers screwing up that badly) but the back-story on the assassin drones was fairly clear that the SLN wasn't interested largely because of NIH.

Weird Harold wrote:

Zakharra wrote: Where do people keep getting the idea the SL and its systems had advanced tech it hasn't used yet in its ships? David Weber seems to be fairly consistent in his books that the SL is -not- a place R&D really takes place anymore because of severe institutional complacency and arrogance.

That comes from the fact that most of the SLN is around 200 years old. The SLN is highly conservative and strongly affected by "Not Invented Here" syndrome; consequently, they stay with "tried and true" systems and bring new technology into service only slowly.

The member system of the Solarian League aren't necessarily as conservative as the SLN -- especially Battle Fleet -- and don't have the huge investment in several thousand SDs to maintain. Individual System Defense Forces can upgrade or build new ships with newer technology without having to bring a huge fleet up to a common standard.

The general run of civilian tech in the Solarian League is much higher than the Solarian League Navy is willing to invest in.

Technodyne has a fairly active R&D section, and presumably the other SLN suppliers do as well. Technodyne provided the pod launched system defense missiles in Monica, and the assassin RDs used in Operation Hassan (the assassination of PM Cromarty) was developed by a solarian defense contractor and declined by the SLN as impractical -- the RMN adapted the concept to create Mistletoe.

R&D does go on, albeit at a much slower pace than the RMN and RHN have been driven by war, but the SLN simply hasn't been buying the fruits of independent R&D because the SLN didn't think of it first.

I never really got the impression that the SL as a whole was interested in pushing the boundary of technology. The SL has never been under the pressure Manticore was, or Havan after the war started, or the Andermani. There's no real incentive to improve much and R&D seems to have gone along as a lackluster pace. Technodyne did do some actual R&D, but I get the idea that was pushed and funded by the MAlign, not by Technodyne corporate policy itself. In other words, it took outside influence to get Technodyne to do the R&D in the first place, on their own, Technodyne wouldn't have done anything.

By themselves, the SL corporations aren't driven to be the top dog in tech development. A large part of that is "Not Invented Here" syndrome. I think you nailed that exactly. The Sollies see themselves as the pinnacle of human political, economic and military evolution in the human explored galaxy. Every other human polity is a neo-barb and hence not really a threat to the SL's position at the top of the galactic heap. To be honest, this was true up until the last 100-70 years when Manticore started to pull ahead. It's definitely not true now despite the SLs deepest wishes.

Yes the stealth tech to assassinate Cromarty was SL tech, and at the time, there was a basis on SL tech being very good, but now that simply isn't the case. It's several generations behind and it's going to be hard for them to catch up. Just getting close to the levels of miniaturization the Manticore Alliance and now the GA uses is going to be a -very- hard task. It was difficult for Manticore to get those levels of miniaturization, for the SL to get that? I don't see them getting it in less than 15-20 years. Unless they get their hands on some of the technology. The multiple drive missiles will be easier to produce, but even there, there's problems. Not to mention having to build a pod laying navy in the first place.

The individual SDFs are expected to work with SLN Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet, so they couldn't and wouldn't use anything that would clash with SLN tactical policy. Remember in times of war, SDFs can be merged with FF/BF so the systems on all of the ships, FF, BF, SDFs have be compatible across the board. Hence the reason the Beowolf SDF didn't use any of the Manty tech goodies they knew existed. There are regular inspections by somewhat qualified teams of SLN techno nerds, so they wouldn't have really been able to build ships that just happen to be upgradeable to the new tech that is 4-5 generations above the current SL tech line. Those changes to the general design of the ships would have been noticed and commented on.

Others have addressed this eloquently.

I would remind you that during the first war and the interwar period, the RHN used basic technology supplied by various SL member systems and transtellars to essentially duplicate the SD(P) and MDMs. They were not as advanced as RMN weapons systems, but they compensated with superior numbers. Manticore would have been defeated if it had not developed Apollo which was a quantum leap even more important than the missile pod and MDM.

All of these basic technologies as well as others that were not shared with Haven are becoming available to the SLN and the various SDFs. Given time, they can narrow the technology gap withtheotherwomen RMN then overwhelm them with superior numbers. The RMN strategy isto deny them the time, but constraints on missile supplies encumbers that strategy.

Zakharra wrote:

BobfromSydney wrote:I suppose quite a lot of the SDFs that have not planned ahead for the SLN break up have ships that are "equipped for but not with" better modern weapons and missiles.

Getting those better weapons, sensors, decoys and missiles installed before the security environment disintegrates will be quite a challenge I think.

I agree that the most important factor will be political will - being able to authorise funding for a full fleet upgrade on an emergency basis would not be easy in most polities.

The other factor is technological capability. Launching an effective military R&D apparatus from a cold start would be a really big challenge. I think the transtellar defence contractors will be receiving more contracts than they know what to do with very soon.

I have a feeling that they will permit their most basic designs to be produced locally under contract and produce their more advanced models themselves.

I also imagine that their primary shipyards will be full of ships in various states of construction most of the time as well. Not just manufactured for the SLN, but SDF's as well. Maybe there will be a start of WWI situation where Great Britain commandeered all the battleships it was building for other countries that were still in dock.

There is one very good reason for the transtellars not to do that though - trust. If they breach a contract in such a fashion they might not be getting many contracts in the future.

Where do people keep getting the idea the SL and its systems had advanced tech it hasn't used yet in its ships? David Weber seems to be fairly consistent in his books that the SL is -not- a place R&D really takes place anymore because of severe institutional complacency and arrogance. Beowolf and the systems that will be a part of the RF, and the Maya sector (kind of) are about the only places that has access to actual advanced technology, and that only because of help from the outside. None of them have really done any of the R&D themselves. for the most part, the SL literally doesn't have any new tech unless someone gives it to them (Mesa or Technodyne). That seems to be the main thrust of Admiral Kingsford in ART, is that the SLN cannot improve/update their ships because it doesn't have anything to improve/update them with, and the systems that build the SLN's ships would have had access to the best technology the SL has. You can probably count on one hand the number of systems in the SL that have access to better tech they developed themselves. The transstellars seem not to be the sort that does a lot of R&D and until recently, it was done haphazardly. It's again the institutional arrogance the SL and SLN show to others. Their technology simply has to be better because they are the SL.

namelessfly wrote:Others have addressed this eloquently.

I would remind you that during the first war and the interwar period, the RHN used basic technology supplied by various SL member systems and transtellars to essentially duplicate the SD(P) and MDMs. They were not as advanced as RMN weapons systems, but they compensated with superior numbers. Manticore would have been defeated if it had not developed Apollo which was a quantum leap even more important than the missile pod and MDM.

All of these basic technologies as well as others that were not shared with Haven are becoming available to the SLN and the various SDFs. Given time, they can narrow the technology gap withtheotherwomen RMN then overwhelm them with superior numbers. The RMN strategy isto deny them the time, but constraints on missile supplies encumbers that strategy.

I think once it got to the MD missiles and pod laying ships, with Moriarty and the other goodies Shannon made, Haven had surpassed anything useful the SL had tech wise. Yes Haven started out using what Solly tech they could beg, borrow or steal, but they have had very good incentive to do their own R&D, especially since they have had Manty tech to base their goal on. Bolthole was a place that was started under the Legislationists and carried on through the Peoples Committee and St. Just and the restored Republic. I think by the time St. just was in charge, Haven was doing its own R&D and not depending on Solly scraps. It really took off under Shannon's direction.

At the point of pod laying ships, that wasn't something really doable by SL military tech. It required developing newer levels of technology the SL wasn't capable of. However, that's not to say the SL cannot adapt or use some of it like the Technodyne missiles. They need to change their way of thinking and come up with entirely new classes of vessels and fighting tactics, not to mention completely rebuild their entire fleet, while trying to upgrade their industrial systems at the same to build these new ships and weapon systems. It's kind of hard to build a new fleet when you don't have the technological capacity or even plans to do so yet. IF the SL gets the time they need and stays intact, it can win. Maybe, but it will be at a huge cost on all sides. It's like trying to build the next generation of warships when you don't have the tech capable of doing it yet.

However as it has been mentioned, the GA is several steps ahead of the SL in several important areas. So far the only thing I see the SL having is numbers. Admittedly the SL just has to get close to the GA's level of tech. The question becomes is can they do that fast enough to be able to use their numbers? All it would take is regular raid on shipyards and that hammers the SL's ability to build the ships when they do get the technology. Which is faster? The GA's ability to develop newer technologies and battle tactics faster than the SL can develop its own technology to come close to matching the Ga's tech advantage. I think it's a race the GA will win. They have the knowledge, the will and tech, plus plenty of areas that can use it now. The basic infrastructure is already there and the R&D is already working on the next generation of toys, while the SL is having to play catch up and there's a very big chance they won't survive to be able to use any of the technological upgrades and improvements they get.

namelessfly wrote:Others have addressed this eloquently.

I would remind you that during the first war and the interwar period, the RHN used basic technology supplied by various SL member systems and transtellars to essentially duplicate the SD(P) and MDMs. They were not as advanced as RMN weapons systems, but they compensated with superior numbers. Manticore would have been defeated if it had not developed Apollo which was a quantum leap even more important than the missile pod and MDM.

All of these basic technologies as well as others that were not shared with Haven are becoming available to the SLN and the various SDFs. Given time, they can narrow the technology gap withtheotherwomen RMN then overwhelm them with superior numbers. The RMN strategy isto deny them the time, but constraints on missile supplies encumbers that strategy.

Very good point to keep in mind, Namelessfly. Yes, after how many years of war and the consequent intensive R&D push by both Manticore and Haven, the SLN's military hardware is desperately outdated. Of course, that also means that its tactical doctrine is also not up to standard. But at the start of the First Havenite War the SLN wasn't that far behind the RMN wrt military technology, otherwise the Peeps wouldn't have survived as long as they did.