Thomas Thiesman

I don't think a followup attack would be a good idea. If they went for Manticore again they would be facing eighth fleet at the ready. and if they attacked anywhere else the RMN might send eighth fleet to hit Haven in retaliation.

Roguevictory wrote:I don't think a followup attack would be a good idea. If they went for Manticore again they would be facing eighth fleet at the ready. and if they attacked anywhere else the RMN might send eighth fleet to hit Haven in retaliation.

They can't attack Haven with 8th. The RHN blowed up all the other RMN ships.

Bruno Behrends wrote:
We should all keep in mind in this discussion that we are talking about a literary universe.

While it is preferrable if the characters' actions make sense within the framework of the Honorverse, ultimately the dramaturgy of the storyline is what trumps all.

If we overanalyze and question every in-world decision, we make if very hard for the author to come up with good stories.

If we take Shakespeares' Hamlet for instance it would arguably have been logical for the Prince of Denmark to kill is uncle in the first act, the second at the latest. But where would the story be in that?

So give David a break please.

The decision of the Havenite side to launch an all-out attack on Manticore made sense within the framework of the story. Of course there also were counterwailing arguments - valid ones - but the decision was still understandable and that is enough for me to enjoy the story.

And what counts in the end - on the meta-level - is the overarching storyline: After a long, rocky and heroic career Honor was going to die in the defense of her homeworld. A satisfying end to an immensely successful and fantastic story, starting with Basilisk station.

That she didn't die in the end is an added bonus.

That needed to be said Bruno. Kudos. However, some of us are aware of these points. We just like to playfully pontificate.

If I said it once I said it a million times, RFC is an amazing writer. His stories are realistic. Think about it. Humans make varying degrees of decisions regarding the exact same conundrum. Present a single problem to a group of ten people and get greater than five completely different solutions. As complexity increases the solutions approaches ten.

I think Honor should have immediately turned Young in. I think everyone would have believed her. Yet, would they? Moreover, if I were a woman, would I not feel the exact same way? Might not many other women as well? When I am watching a horror flick, why don't the idiots see there's an axe murderer outside? It's obvious to me. "Don't open the door to see what that sound is you idiot!" But we would do the exact same thing. Human natures react differently to the same stimuli.

Besides, we like to give RFC's characters a hard time, not RFC. (Subconciously, we see our friends, associates, acquaintances, even ourselves in them.) And sometimes we'd like to hug, kiss and fornicate err pontificate with them. So, it evens out in the end.

It all comes down to relativity. Because we assimilate facts and situations differently, our assessment of the same stimuli is observerationally different — relative.

P.S.
As in Vegas what happens in the forum, stays in the forum or I'll be in deep excrement. I've been court ordered to remain a parsec from Abigail. It was simply a misunderstanding.

Bruno Behrends wrote:
The decision of the Havenite side to launch an all-out attack on Manticore made sense within the framework of the story.

I think your statement is correct in an even broader sense Bruno ...


The decision of the Havenite side to launch an all-out attack on Manticore made sense within the framework of human nature.

MaxxQ wrote:

HB of CJ wrote:One of the very few recurring unrealistic themes of the Honorverse is the seemingly willingly suicidal military personnel who by the millions apparently have little problem taking that final death ride to death?

Or, put another way, one of the first things a commanding officer learns, (sometimes the hard way) is to never give an order that he has reason to believe will not be carried out. Why did not the Peep fleet just refuse?

HB of CJ (old coot) Lt.Cm....no...wait...I have been promoted! Hee Haw!! I am now a full Commander! I love this Forum!

Ummm.. because if they *had* refused, they would have been sitting on their asses in the Havenite system waiting for the Manties to come over the wall and either kill them all there while defending their home system, or they would have surrendered in utter and humiliating defeat.

By attacking Manticore while there was still a *possibility* of winning, they at least *may* not have died in vain. As it was, they did, but there was still a *chance*.

Die now when there's a chance of winning, or die later when there's no chance at all... tough decision, eh?

Edit: Might as well ask why all those troops in WWI went over the trenches into murderous machine gun fire.

There is a very easy solution to this, you the military take over in another coup. Sue for peace when buttercup comes a knocking with the senate and new government sitting in a prison cell awaiting their trials. The Manties wouldn't be pleased but the navy wouldn't be dead and wouldn't have suffered the demeaning loss either other way. Two or three Kew strikes and suddenly the problem is solved.

danpcman wrote:Since people have been bringing up the BOM..

Theisman sent all those ships to Manticore knowing half would die in 2nd Fleet. That had to be a given answer from the planners. They had to realize that they were going to take horrendous losses just from system defence pods.

Why is he still an Admiral let alone Secretary of War after an action like that?

Senator Podunk: "Admiral, can you tell the committee just how many ships you were expecting to be destroyed when you sent them on a one way mission to Manticore?"

Senator BigButtios: "Mr. Secretary, you really don't expect us to believe that you thought it was a good idea to kill a million citizens? Yes we are all grateful that you disposed of St Just. Please answer the question."

Theisman: "Less than the 100% that will be destroyed if we don't act before the Manti's show up with a fleet fully equipped with their new missile tech."

That was basically the entire premise of Beatrice.

dreamrider

Essentially they had the decision to either strike directly at Manticore or to surrender.

I'm really kind of surprised they didn't show up with a delegation to discuss surrender after the remnants of 5th made it back. It was pretty obviously over at that point.

Edit: on second thought, i would have had Thiesman empowered to negotiate a Manticore surrender or the surrender of Haven, depending on how many ships have Apollo. Or have someone with him who was able to do this.

Lord Skimper wrote:

HB of CJ wrote:One of the very few recurring unrealistic themes of the Honorverse is the seemingly willingly suicidal military personnel who by the millions apparently have little problem taking that final death ride to death?

Or, put another way, one of the first things a commanding officer learns, (sometimes the hard way) is to never give an order that he has reason to believe will not be carried out. Why did not the Peep fleet just refuse?

HB of CJ (old coot) Lt.Cm....no...wait...I have been promoted! Hee Haw!! I am now a full Commander! I love this Forum!

Ummm.. because if they *had* refused, they would have been sitting on their asses in the Havenite system waiting for the Manties to come over the wall and either kill them all there while defending their home system, or they would have surrendered in utter and humiliating defeat.

By attacking Manticore while there was still a *possibility* of winning, they at least *may* not have died in vain. As it was, they did, but there was still a *chance*.

Die now when there's a chance of winning, or die later when there's no chance at all... tough decision, eh?

Edit: Might as well ask why all those troops in WWI went over the trenches into murderous machine gun fire.

There is a very easy solution to this, you the military take over in another coup. Sue for peace when buttercup comes a knocking with the senate and new government sitting in a prison cell awaiting their trials. The Manties wouldn't be pleased but the navy wouldn't be dead and wouldn't have suffered the demeaning loss either other way. Two or three Kew strikes and suddenly the problem is solved.

You're speaking with the knowledge of someone without military experience. You come across as not understanding why or how the military works or how or why people in the military do what they do, even advancing into possible certain death. You also seem to be purposefully misunderstanding the character of Thomas Thiesman too. Or the men and women he was leading.

Despite your claims, Beatrice was the best and literally only option Thiesman had to offer to the RoH to win before the new Apollo missiles became available in large numbers. It was an all or nothing roll of the dice and if not for the 8th Fleet being in Trevor's Star, it would have worked.

Lord Skimper wrote:
There is a very easy solution to this, you the military take over in another coup. Sue for peace when buttercup comes a knocking with the senate and new government sitting in a prison cell awaiting their trials. The Manties wouldn't be pleased but the navy wouldn't be dead and wouldn't have suffered the demeaning loss either other way. Two or three Kew strikes and suddenly the problem is solved.

Yeah most of the members in the navy who had anything approaching a serious interest in running the Republic of Haven were probably among the losers in the RH Civil War. There's also the fact that doing so would be high-treason and unlike Thiesman the only reason they had to justify their treason was they didn't want to fulfill their obligations as soldiers, their government wasn't slaughtering them or their loved ones en masse for no reason. And even if they tried a coup and pulled it off they would have to worry about these nasty little things called civilian uprisings.

And what are they going to put the government on trial for exactly? Issuing a legal order that the military dislikes isn't a crime. Also all indications are that the RHN actually preferred this order to the alternatives. Yeah they lost in the end but they could have won. Its not like they were being sent into a battle they had no chance of winning.

And do you have any idea how many armies have marched into battles where they knew they were going to lose because they hoped their sacrifice would allow their cause to prevail?

They were at war, they had one chance to win that war and they took it. I don't know where you get this idea that soldiers should automatically give up the instant they have to take a risk to fufill their duty. they decided their nation, and its cause was worth protecting even if it meant risking death.

I don't know why you have such a hard time understanding that some people don't run away or give up the instant they realize they are going to have to do something risky to accomplish their goals or the goals of the organization they belong to.

It sounds like you think that every member of the human race should only care about protecting themselves and be willing to let their friends, loved ones, ideals and homes fall as long as they stay safe.

Xenophon: "Now there are two ways out of this mess, boys:
1 - we could surrender. This probably means death or slavery.
2 - we could march 800 miles, through the mountains and desert and hostile tribes, with no supplies, toward the Persian capital. Then we turn left, march another 500 miles through some more mountains, and try to hitch a ride home on any ships we find on the Black Sea coast. Of course, we will have to fight the Persian provincial armies all along the way.
So which choice do you guys think we should take??"


dreamrider