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Research behind splinters in ship battles?

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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:15 pm

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Stormy wrote:I just got done watching an episode of Myth Busters that debunked splinters from cannon balls going through the wooden sides of ships being more lethal than the balls themselves. In fact, they did very little damage to the pig carcasses being used to test it.
Now, I'm pretty sure in the various books of the Safehold series, rather exhaustive attention was paid to the amount of splinters and how deadly they could be using various different forms of ammunition and lighter or thicker planking and what have you. Since I know DW puts quite a remarkable bit of research into his books, I was quite surprised that the results weren't a lot gorier for the pigs in this show! So how much research was put into this aspect of the stories?


MBs usually do decent enough testing and try to be thorough, but that doesn´t make them perfect.

It´s in historical records that splinters DID cause heavy losses.
Splinters by themselves are most certainly not "more dangerous" than cannon balls, but very few people got hit by cannonballs, while splinters went all over and everywhere.

It effectively becomes a game of numbers, simplified, if you get hit by a cannonball, 90% you die, 10% you´re injured, get hit by splinters 0.1% you die, 1% you´re injured, but every single cannonball tended to cause hundreds or thousands of splinters...

So at a 1:1 comparison, Mythbusters are perfectly correct, but quantity has a quality of it´s own.




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A secondary consideration is the standards of sanitation on ships of that era, and the likelihood for infection of any open wound.


Yup, infection was often a very severe killer. And every single splinter that pierce the skin, could be the one with the infection that would kill you.

There was a lot more ability to treat wounds than is commonly stated, so an infection from a splinter was far from a death sentence, but it was dangerous, and if something went unnoticed for too long, not good.


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They were using a 12 pound cannon, whis is not a 32 or 64 pounder. That episode was a "pirate episode" - they chose the size cannon that they felt was the typical caliber used by pirates. And, I am sure they could obtain. I question how many operable 64 lb muzzle- loadin cannon are around. My guess is that the majority in existance are monuments.


Do note however that those BIG ones, like 64 pounders, were often NOT cannons, but rather carronades, meaning they´re not directly comparable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carronade_gun

Carronades commonly fired various canister or "shotgun" rounds, at short range and relatively low velocity. Large caliber but relatively light weight due to much smaller powder charges used.

And for comparison, the HMS Victory at Trafalgar carried over 40 12 pounders in it´s broadsides, so it wasn´t exactly a horribly poor choice.


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The most telling is that they used a cannon with a much smaller caliber than the typical naval gun as it was a civil war horse artillery piece. The smaller hole punched (half the diameter of a typical naval gun) and the higher muzzle velocity (given the point blank range used) has a significant impact on the results.


Indeed. Instead of a wrecking ball causing lots of splinters you get a much neater punch through.
Last edited by Tenshinai on Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by Annachie   » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:21 am

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I can't find the particular section on youtube to check but if memory serves in one of the slow motion shots you see a rather large section of 2x4 bending around a couple of pig heads. Also there must have been a lot of stress in a ship side with the weight of the ship and the water pushing against it. Explosive release of potential energy anyone? (Actually if anyone has the physics background to say yay or nay on that ... )
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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by Castenea   » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:27 am

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Annachie wrote:I can't find the particular section on youtube to check but if memory serves in one of the slow motion shots you see a rather large section of 2x4 bending around a couple of pig heads. Also there must have been a lot of stress in a ship side with the weight of the ship and the water pushing against it. Explosive release of potential energy anyone? (Actually if anyone has the physics background to say yay or nay on that ... )

2x4? If they are using modern dimension lumber, they have made a major error right there. Modern dimension lumber is cut from softwoods (slight misnomer in the case of yellow pine and doug fir) which have different physical properties than hardwoods (angiosperms). Ships were built of hardwoods suitable for tight cooperage. Ships were built using large pieces and large planks of White Oak, Teak, and other hardwoods.
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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:42 am

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Castenea wrote:2x4? If they are using modern dimension lumber, they have made a major error right there. Modern dimension lumber is cut from softwoods ...


IIRC, Adam did use Oak for the faux ship he built for the test. It wasn't as thick as a true ship's hull and the vertical supports were too widely spaced, but the basic materials were correct.
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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by Zakharra   » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:25 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Castenea wrote:2x4? If they are using modern dimension lumber, they have made a major error right there. Modern dimension lumber is cut from softwoods ...


IIRC, Adam did use Oak for the faux ship he built for the test. It wasn't as thick as a true ship's hull and the vertical supports were too widely spaced, but the basic materials were correct.



They should have built to the same dimensions of a war ship at that time. Not building a test prop to the same dimensions can change the effects of a recreation test so you don't have the same effects as what happened back then.
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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:03 am

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Zakharra wrote: They should have built to the same dimensions of a war ship at that time. Not building a test prop to the same dimensions can change the effects of a recreation test so you don't have the same effects as what happened back then.


True.

The show does have a budget, and IIRC, they used almost all of the seasoned Oak available in central California at the time. <shrugs>
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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by pokermind   » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:42 am

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And obviously no one who understands model theory on the show either. Using plank thinner with wider support spacing won't act like the stakes of the modeled warship, no way! Thinner planks should have supports closer together than the original to properly model the ship's hull, NOT further apart. Get out the dunce hat they deserve it!

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Weird Harold wrote:
Zakharra wrote: They should have built to the same dimensions of a war ship at that time. Not building a test prop to the same dimensions can change the effects of a recreation test so you don't have the same effects as what happened back then.


True.

The show does have a budget, and IIRC, they used almost all of the seasoned Oak available in central California at the time. <shrugs>
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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by boballab   » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:26 pm

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I already pointed this out on the first page of the thread. They built a wall of wood made of modern lumber and even using todays hardwoods is not the same as lumber in the 1700's. Today we use synthetic compounds to preserve wood, however back in the day of say they used pitch made of pine tar to make the sides of ships water tight:
Pitch is produced by boiling tar to concentrate it. It was painted on the sides and bottoms of wooden ships to make them watertight. At room temperature, pitch is nearly solid, much like modern caulk, which has similar uses. When heated, it flows like a liquid and can be used as a paint.

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-colonial/4069

That change right there will effect the test since the pitch hardens as it drys and would cause large splinters to be formed when a cannonball goes crashing through.

Another thing overlooked by the mythbusters is that the planking used on the ships was heated so they could bend the planks to fit the curvature of the frame. The advantage to heating the planks is that the wood more resistant to bio-degradation and more stable. The disadvantage is that the wood loses strength and becomes brittle:
Foremost advantages of wood treated in this manner are its increased resistance to different types of biodegradation and its improved dimensional stability. Many methods of thermal modification of wood have been reported in the literature (Seborg et. al., 1953; Burmester, 1973, 1975; Burmester and Wille, 1976; Giebeler, 1983). Yet undesired side effects, in particular loss of strength and increased brittleness of the treated wood, have prevented a commercial utilisation of thermal modification so far (Runkel and Witt 1953. Davids and Thompson (1964) have reported a reduction in toughness after different heat-treatments. Giebeler (1983) found a reduction of the modulus of rupture of wood of 20 % to 50 % after thermal treatment at 180 °C to 200 °C.

http://woodwestwood.com/Researches/3-5-1.pdf

So back then the white oak planks would be more brittle than modern chemical treated lumber and as we know something brittle when it breaks produces splinters. Then on top of that the brittle wood is covered with hardened pitch made of pine tar which is basically acting as a polymer glue. Think of what happens when something coated with glue is ripped apart, it rips into long jagged pieces away from where the tearing occurs, IOW it makes large jagged splinters.
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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by KNick   » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:34 pm

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Another difference between modern and 1600 - 1700 lumber is the size of the tree it was cut from. At a guess, in modern lumber, the fracture planes are closer to parallel to the flight of the ball, while in older lumber of even the same size, those planes are closer to perpendicular. At a WAG, it seems to me that the newer planks would tend to deform to the sides, while the older planks would tend to try to resist and deform ahead of a cannon ball. Think of it as sheets of paper. In one case (modern lumber), they are stacked on top of a table, one on top of another. In the other case, they are stacked and then stood on end. Now stick a pencil through each stack. Which stack exhibits the most damage around the exit point?

I actually have nothing concrete to base this on, so don't ask for proof. It is all from observation of how wood acts when struck by a hammer and what happens when a nail is driven all the way through a piece of wood.
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Re: Research behind splinters in ship battles?
Post by bhasseler   » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:57 pm

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The US Constitution-class frigates also carried a full battery of long 32s. Constitution's carronades were carronade 32s but United States and President carried carronade 42s. There was also the Superior-class frigate (?) armed with Columbiad 32s (midway between long guns and carronades) and carronade 42s. Only Superior was ever completed. Some British ships carried 68-pounder carronades.

What really surprised me about that Mythbusters episode was how little attention they paid to primary source material. When guys on board during a battle write about specific shipmates being killed or wounded by splinters that should settle it.

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saber964 wrote:Your over looking that at various times over the age of sail the size of the guns changed upwards in weight. During the period of 1760-1790 18 pounders was about the largest in standard use. From 1800 to 1825 it was 24 pounds and IIRC 56 pound carronades, during the ACW era it shot up dramatically with some ships firing 100 pound shot or more.


The standard Ship of the Line on the british side was the 168-feet (length of gundeck) 74-gun two-decker, which carried a mix of 32-pounder guns and carronades. The 32-pounder was found to be the most effective naval gun and the 74er was the smallest ship which could carry a full battery of them. A 32-pounder of this age had a muzzle velocity of 1600 feet per second, a maximum range of 2460 yards, with an optimum range of 400 yards, and could penetrate 2.5 feet of oak.
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