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New Manty ship ideas.

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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by MaxxQ   » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:50 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
The E wrote:
So you want a ship that
-fires MDMs out of internal tubes
-carries a bunch of parasite craft
-carries a couple salvos worth of pods
-is heavily armored
-is in the DN tonnage range

So you basically want the Supership That Does Everything(TM).

How many times are you going to come back with this nonsense?
You forgot he also wants its interior to be highly modular and easy to reconfigures (so much for heavily armored :lol:)


Where's the kitchen sink? I didn't see a kitchen sink... :roll:
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Hutch   » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:37 pm

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MaxxQ wrote: Where's the kitchen sink? I didn't see a kitchen sink... :roll:



It's being fired out of Mass Drivers as a KEW to kill LACs...(see, it's fun to operate without constraints.... :P )
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by MaxxQ   » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:54 pm

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Hutch wrote:
MaxxQ wrote: Where's the kitchen sink? I didn't see a kitchen sink... :roll:



It's being fired out of Mass Drivers as a KEW to kill LACs...(see, it's fun to operate without constraints.... :P )


Fun for the operator... everyone else gets high blood pressure and needs to be physically restrained from the keyboard.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Roguevictory   » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:24 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:Given the Large progression and seemingly unwillingness to expand the DR SD roles perhaps a BBL or Super SBC might have a use. 7-8.5 mega ton range. Full MDM armament. Limited LAC armoured connections similar to kelhole connections. Full SD sized but limited Grasers. As many tubes as can be squeezed in and full PD CM capabilities of a SD(P). Full Armour and then some. Carry 6 Katana for further defensive shielding. Add full wall of battle enhancement, and increase initial pod fire telemetry. While further enhancing the defensive fire / shielding survivability until pods are empty then continuing the offensive actions using the 100 some tubes of full MDM it carries. 4-5 salvos will empty everyone's pods. At which point if they and you have survived either luck is a factor or suddenly a defense has been found (perhaps a SBC).

100+ tubes are enough to keep the follow up fire withering without compromising the design of the SD(P). Initially tubes would not be fired concentrating on defensive actions and added telemetry for draining the pods. Donkey pods might be carried with full system pods in a money no object attack again doing this isn't such a big deal as the SBC can tow as many as a SD(P). Unlike the vulnerable CLAC it doesn't have to hold back or flee if confronted, it likewise doesn't additional ships on single ship missions. It does it all better even than a Nike BCL. It can be used although as a bit of overkill in peace time, carrying out smaller ship functions. Unlike the SD(P) which are really just wartime vessels. During peacetime 6 shrike can carry out customs actions with full assault shuttle back ups.

For the wall of battle the SBC adds defensive fire more than any other ship. 6 Katana more than the Invictus. Further enhances the wall of battle with full tube launched MDM and carries a full donkey load of pods. May carry either a standard keyhole II or a larger keyhole III which mounts CM in a Roland type chase mount. For further defensive heavy deployment. Adding full telemetry of a SD(P) for draining pods and increasing salvo size. Operates in the wall from the enemies POV it is another SD(P). No extra targets that get concentrated o to remove defensive enhancements.

After the active warfare it further can be used as any smaller traditional craft. Made to operate with a light crew not using all features and capablities. One could even have armoured hatched tube covers graser covers that slide into place like a Q ship but not being a Q ship. It is a full Escort ship Customs ship operating alone to everywhere from freighter escort in backwater are as with reduced crew or with full crew in the latest wall of battle.

Modular internal layouts with ease of refit built into the design to keep it current. Quick connection layout that are slotted into place with in weeks, designed and built ahead of time and carried out either in the field or a full slip, depending on what they are. A deepdock / repair ship can dock and repair replace damaged or updated components pretty much anywhere. No need for extensive refits and down time. A week floating in unnamed space with escorts and the new compensator is in place up and running.

Why have this? Because a means to protect the wall of battle is needed. LAC help but getting them into and out of engagements is risky. CLAC are big targets and with 50 SBC you can move 300 LAC with out the risk of bringing in 3 or 4 CLAC targets. All your eggs in one big basket is great for freighter actions but makes for messy mistakes in military operations. CLAC should be with pod and other rearming carries kept well back from battles. Escorting repair ships rearming ships and not brought into harms way. They are a ferry and nobody brings a ferry into a naval battle.


Yeah the only way you will get anything remotely close to that capability on a single hull is if its the honorverse equilivant of a Starfire Monitor, probably closer to a Super Monitor. There's no way in hell to fit all of that onto a SDN hull without crippling its armor. And adding modular tech on top of that is insane.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:51 pm

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Roguevictory wrote:Yeah the only way you will get anything remotely close to that capability on a single hull is if its the honorverse equilivant of a Starfire Monitor, probably closer to a Super Monitor. There's no way in hell to fit all of that onto a SDN hull without crippling its armor. And adding modular tech on top of that is insane.


Starfire didn't stop at the supermonitor - they went up to devastators and - guess! - superdevastators. :P
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Roguevictory   » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:13 pm

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munroburton wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:Yeah the only way you will get anything remotely close to that capability on a single hull is if its the honorverse equilivant of a Starfire Monitor, probably closer to a Super Monitor. There's no way in hell to fit all of that onto a SDN hull without crippling its armor. And adding modular tech on top of that is insane.


Starfire didn't stop at the supermonitor - they went up to devastators and - guess! - superdevastators. :P



I know. They were so big that they had to invent a system to artificially enlarge Warp Points to get them through many warp points. IMO that's the point when you should seriously ask yourself if your capital ships are getting too big.

If memory serves by that point there was a movement going to reduce anything smaller than a BC from a capital ship to a big long ranged, fuel and supply wise at least, gunboat in the in-universe ship classification system, or was that anything smaller than a DN?
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:01 am

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Not DN tonnage range. SD tonnage. Twice the broadside of a Nike, with Mk23 sized tubes, or whatever is used later.

3-4 times the volume of a Nike.

3 LAC in keyhole type docks. Given that a keyhole I or II is a great deal bigger than a LAC this shouldn't be a problem.

Better armour than a Nike with space for the armour spacing. Modular designed into layout, so it can be modified. You keep thinking modular means you can't do stuff, which is wrong. Designed to be modular means it can be changed. Hatches are big enough for the dismantled sections to fit through them. It really isn't hard if you plan ahead.

Modular connections of all pipes, corridors, wire guides, wires, cables, vents, etc.... I can just imagine the group of you designing a main battle tank. It has armour it can't possibly be modular. It needs a rolls Royce engine each one built by hand in a factory and needing a month in that factory to replace the engine. Only MBT do have modular engines and are field replaceable in 15 minutes. Unlike a truck, non military, engine that requires a repair shop and days to weeks to replace an engine. The MBT are not the tanks of WWII, they are better, modular and heavily armoured. Tracks, guide wheels, transmissions, coaxil guns, sights, range finders, even main gun barrels. Reactive armour segments are even field replaceable. Most even have field snorkles that let them drive under water.

Come to think about it you would be hard pressed to find a ship built in the last 40 years that has more armour than a modern MBT.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Roguevictory   » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:11 am

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Yeah I'm pretty sure those hatches would be little more than "For maximum damage put laser, graser, or explosion here." signs
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by The E   » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:29 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:Twice the broadside of a Nike, with Mk23 sized tubes, or whatever is used later.


Won't work. A Nike has 25 broadside launchers for the Mk 16. A Gryphon, which is only about 30% longer than a Nike and which does not carry Keyhole or LAC bays, has 37 missile launchers in her broadside, which were sized for missiles that were much smaller than the Mk 23. To fit everything you want in there, you would have to massively cut back on the energy batteries (Not only because of the space taken up by LAC bays, but also all the magazines and engineering spaces needed for the missile launchers and the LACs).

3 LAC in keyhole type docks. Given that a keyhole I or II is a great deal bigger than a LAC this shouldn't be a problem.


Why 3? Are you using asymmetrical broadsides or some other strange idea

Also, 3 LACs aren't that effective as a force multiplier. A squadron of these ships would carry just about 2 squadrons of LACs; you can get equal or better protection by just assigning a DD flotilla as escorts (With the added bonus that DDs are much more flexible weapons)

Better armour than a Nike with space for the armour spacing. Modular designed into layout, so it can be modified. You keep thinking modular means you can't do stuff, which is wrong. Designed to be modular means it can be changed. Hatches are big enough for the dismantled sections to fit through them. It really isn't hard if you plan ahead.

Modular connections of all pipes, corridors, wire guides, wires, cables, vents, etc.... I can just imagine the group of you designing a main battle tank. It has armour it can't possibly be modular. It needs a rolls Royce engine each one built by hand in a factory and needing a month in that factory to replace the engine. Only MBT do have modular engines and are field replaceable in 15 minutes. Unlike a truck, non military, engine that requires a repair shop and days to weeks to replace an engine. The MBT are not the tanks of WWII, they are better, modular and heavily armoured. Tracks, guide wheels, transmissions, coaxil guns, sights, range finders, even main gun barrels. Reactive armour segments are even field replaceable. Most even have field snorkles that let them drive under water.

Come to think about it you would be hard pressed to find a ship built in the last 40 years that has more armour than a modern MBT.


Going by that definition, Honorverse ships already incorporate modularity in their basic designs. But in your previous ideas, you talked about modules that would change the role of a ship completely (from warship to freighter), so please forgive us lesser minds for taking that as the baseline for what you term modularity.

Also, I now kinda want to see how you'd pull off a field replacement on an MBT engine without some support structure. Because that sounds rather impossible to do, given the weight and bulkiness of the items involved.

In your analogy, you are also ignoring something you would have known if you read the books. Honorverse armor plating for capital ships is not mounted in sections (as reactive armor is on MBTs). It's as close as possible to a seamless shell as it can be, and sometimes you have to cut through it or circumvent it in order to get at the internals of a ship (see Short Victorious War for a discussion of this issue).
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:53 am

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Hi The E,

You forgot he wants IT to be 3-4 times the size of a Nike.

While 3 times is just over 7.25 MT, 4 times of course would put at 9.667 MT. much bigger than any SD but rather pitiful as you point out.

When it gets piled that ridiculously high, its time to go somewhere else.

L


The E wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:Twice the broadside of a Nike, with Mk23 sized tubes, or whatever is used later.


Won't work. A Nike has 25 broadside launchers for the Mk 16. A Gryphon, which is only about 30% longer than a Nike and which does not carry Keyhole or LAC bays, has 37 missile launchers in her broadside, which were sized for missiles that were much smaller than the Mk 23. To fit everything you want in there, you would have to massively cut back on the energy batteries (Not only because of the space taken up by LAC bays, but also all the magazines and engineering spaces needed for the missile launchers and the LACs).

3 LAC in keyhole type docks. Given that a keyhole I or II is a great deal bigger than a LAC this shouldn't be a problem.


Why 3? Are you using asymmetrical broadsides or some other strange idea

Also, 3 LACs aren't that effective as a force multiplier. A squadron of these ships would carry just about 2 squadrons of LACs; you can get equal or better protection by just assigning a DD flotilla as escorts (With the added bonus that DDs are much more flexible weapons)

Better armour than a Nike with space for the armour spacing. Modular designed into layout, so it can be modified. You keep thinking modular means you can't do stuff, which is wrong. Designed to be modular means it can be changed. Hatches are big enough for the dismantled sections to fit through them. It really isn't hard if you plan ahead.

Modular connections of all pipes, corridors, wire guides, wires, cables, vents, etc.... I can just imagine the group of you designing a main battle tank. It has armour it can't possibly be modular. It needs a rolls Royce engine each one built by hand in a factory and needing a month in that factory to replace the engine. Only MBT do have modular engines and are field replaceable in 15 minutes. Unlike a truck, non military, engine that requires a repair shop and days to weeks to replace an engine. The MBT are not the tanks of WWII, they are better, modular and heavily armoured. Tracks, guide wheels, transmissions, coaxil guns, sights, range finders, even main gun barrels. Reactive armour segments are even field replaceable. Most even have field snorkles that let them drive under water.

Come to think about it you would be hard pressed to find a ship built in the last 40 years that has more armour than a modern MBT.


Going by that definition, Honorverse ships already incorporate modularity in their basic designs. But in your previous ideas, you talked about modules that would change the role of a ship completely (from warship to freighter), so please forgive us lesser minds for taking that as the baseline for what you term modularity.

Also, I now kinda want to see how you'd pull off a field replacement on an MBT engine without some support structure. Because that sounds rather impossible to do, given the weight and bulkiness of the items involved.

In your analogy, you are also ignoring something you would have known if you read the books. Honorverse armor plating for capital ships is not mounted in sections (as reactive armor is on MBTs). It's as close as possible to a seamless shell as it can be, and sometimes you have to cut through it or circumvent it in order to get at the internals of a ship (see Short Victorious War for a discussion of this issue).
Last edited by lyonheart on Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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