Core world vulnerability

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:The RF's goal is to eventually become the "bigger and better" successor to the League. Each RF member will start out as a local or regional defense force. Then I think the RF forces will form a mutual defense organization called the Renaissance Factor. And only in the fullness of time would people realize that the organization has morphed into a bigger and better Solarian League. I think they expect this process to take decades.

Then the RF will "eventually" show up on the SEM's radar as a threat. The RF's strategy is to give the impression of "big brother protecting the weaker" and not force anyone to join -- Albrecht specifically warns one of the rulers to let a friend go his own way until he's ready to join. But sooner or later, the RF is going to become "bigger than us" and be seen as a potential threat.

I would imagine that GA response would largely depend on RF behavior. For star systems to willingly join RF would disguise RF's malice and probably not draw a GA response. If RF starts playing conqistador, tha GA would probably perceive a threat and respond much faster.

Don

the thing is the alignment was goig to have the RF as the most attractive power, but with the manties around, even those that dislike them realise their power and ability.

Hi SYED,

Since the GA is already looking for the new Mesa front they've been expecting since MoH, the RF may be surprised how quickly the GA focuses on them, because they fit the expected profile so well.

So their leaders may have to put up with a lot of GA attention including investigators and leaders visiting with their treecats, who can confirm they're not being completely honest about some things.

From there, only RFC knows.

L

SYED wrote:the thing is the alignment was goig to have the RF as the most attractive power, but with the manties around, even those that dislike them realise their power and ability.

I doubt the GA will be able to haul the leaders of sovereign star systems into interrogation rooms to be vetted by treecats.

While they have the military power to accomplish such actions, the diplomatic repercussions would be severely negative. They would be seen by neutral powers as loose cannons that do not respect other systems rights.

It makes more sense for the GA to send spies in to try and covertly discover this kind of information.

As for conducting such an investigation under the guise of diplomatic talks - any RF mole worth his gene-mods will send 'innocent' patsies from the dept. of foreign affairs to conduct the negotiations. Pretty much the only way you can 'force' a nation to host a meeting with its head of government/head of state is to bring your own head of govt./state along. At the very least it would need to be a cabinet level official of a major polity.

Perhaps Honor (with or without Nimitz 'present') would be able to take on this role?

The whole approach seems unrealistic though, even if they suspect a particular government has been subverted, they wouldn't necessarily know which level the government has been subverted on.

SYED wrote:the thing is the alignment was goig to have the RF as the most attractive power, but with the manties around, even those that dislike them realise their power and ability.

lyonheart wrote:Hi SYED,

Since the GA is already looking for the new Mesa front they've been expecting since MoH, the RF may be surprised how quickly the GA focuses on them, because they fit the expected profile so well.

So their leaders may have to put up with a lot of GA attention including investigators and leaders visiting with their treecats, who can confirm they're not being completely honest about some things.

From there, only RFC knows.

L

What profile?

As far as I remember, they do have "look for new MAlign front" on their agenda, but I've never seen a profile of what they think it should look like.

Hi JohnRoth,

What do you think the MAlign's front would be?

Or, how would you describe the RF?

What do you think the GA would be looking for?

L

JohnRoth wrote:

SYED wrote:the thing is the alignment was goig to have the RF as the most attractive power, but with the manties around, even those that dislike them realise their power and ability.

lyonheart wrote:Hi SYED,

Since the GA is already looking for the new Mesa front they've been expecting since MoH, the RF may be surprised how quickly the GA focuses on them, because they fit the expected profile so well.

So their leaders may have to put up with a lot of GA attention including investigators and leaders visiting with their treecats, who can confirm they're not being completely honest about some things.

From there, only RFC knows.

L

What profile?

As far as I remember, they do have "look for new MAlign front" on their agenda, but I've never seen a profile of what they think it should look like.

lyonheart wrote:Hi JohnRoth,

What do you think the MAlign's front would be?

Or, how would you describe the RF?

What do you think the GA would be looking for?

L

I doubt the RF would show up as a Mesa/Manpower/MAlign backed new star nation. Every system, and I mean every system, of the dying SL is going to be scrambling for allies and building their navies. some of the more established nations with shipyards in them will grow faster. If elements of the SLN Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet join some of the new nations, that gives them a leg up, especially if the system the SL Naval depots are in are included in it.

The point is, there's going to be dozens of new star nations forming, some will stay small, some will break up, some will be peaceful (relatively) mergers, others formed by conquest (remember there are systems in the Shell, Verge and even the Core that don't like other systems and would likely use the chaos to get in a hit or four if they can), but there will be some fairly large political organizations forming. The RF's forming won;y necessarily stand out more than any other one will, especially since I am led to understand the systems that will make up the RF aren't anywhere near the Mesa system.

The only way I see the GA catching onto who created and runs the RF is if the RF uses ships with the streak and spider drives, or any of the other tech the renegade Manpower scientist (Simoen's? is his name?)has told the GA about.

Zakharra wrote:The only way I see the GA catching onto who created and runs the RF is if the RF uses ships with the streak and spider drives, or any of the other tech the renegade Manpower scientist (Simoen's? is his name?)has told the GA about.

The only way I see the RF openly using the streak drive, spider drive, or any other goodies from the MA secret labs is if they've already been identified as being linked to the MA somehow, or some non-RF nation develops equivalents to them. In the latter case the RF arrange for a reason to justify them declaring war on the developers than claim to have reverse engineered the technology from ships and data obtained during the fighting after an appropriate amount of time.

Zakharra wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi JohnRoth,

What do you think the MAlign's front would be?

Or, how would you describe the RF?

What do you think the GA would be looking for?

L

I doubt the RF would show up as a Mesa/Manpower/MAlign backed new star nation. Every system, and I mean every system, of the dying SL is going to be scrambling for allies and building their navies. some of the more established nations with shipyards in them will grow faster. If elements of the SLN Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet join some of the new nations, that gives them a leg up, especially if the system the SL Naval depots are in are included in it.

The point is, there's going to be dozens of new star nations forming, some will stay small, some will break up, some will be peaceful (relatively) mergers, others formed by conquest (remember there are systems in the Shell, Verge and even the Core that don't like other systems and would likely use the chaos to get in a hit or four if they can), but there will be some fairly large political organizations forming. The RF's forming won;y necessarily stand out more than any other one will, especially since I am led to understand the systems that will make up the RF aren't anywhere near the Mesa system.

The only way I see the GA catching onto who created and runs the RF is if the RF uses ships with the streak and spider drives, or any of the other tech the renegade Manpower scientist (Simoen's? is his name?)has told the GA about.

Several things occur to me. First is that we have textev that Simoes doesn't know anything about either Darius or the RF. President Pritchard and Queen Elizabeth have postulated the existence of both, but as far as we know they have no clue about where to look for either.

Second is that the RF planets and Mesa are close enough together for the big meeting on Mannerheim to take place, with Albrecht being back on Mesa in a couple of weeks. Part of that "close together" may very well be via the Felix Junction or other hyper bridges. They are also definitely using the streak drive for communications.

Then there's this:

Mission of Honor, Chapter 38.2 wrote:"In its own way, this meeting's going to be even more critical than Oyster Bay was. No one's going public, but we'll be very quietly activating the Alignment as an actual star nation. That's going to represent a huge step, and one we're not going to want to make public until the League's started to show a few surface fissures, at least. But once we begin the process, we're going to have to bring in successively lower levels in all of our members star systems' governments. The fact that we're up to something is, frankly, likely to leak out a lot sooner than we'd really prefer. I doubt very much that anyone on the outside is going to figure out what we're really up to, but that's not going to guarantee we won't have a few dicey moments in the not too distant future. And most of the people who're going to be in Mannerheim for our little meeting didn't get where they are by being stupid. It's going to occur to them, too, that we're looking at what's in many ways our greatest period of vulnerability over the next T-year or two. That being the case, I'd like them to feel as reassured as possible about the hardware we used in Oyster Bay."

If they use the Lenny Dets as backup to the RF's navy, that'll really flag who's behind things for anyone who's looking.

Finally, all of this happens before the peace conference between Queen Elizabeth and President Pritchard, with the big reveal about the Mesan Alignment.

JohnRoth wrote:

Zakharra wrote:
I doubt the RF would show up as a Mesa/Manpower/MAlign backed new star nation. Every system, and I mean every system, of the dying SL is going to be scrambling for allies and building their navies. some of the more established nations with shipyards in them will grow faster. If elements of the SLN Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet join some of the new nations, that gives them a leg up, especially if the system the SL Naval depots are in are included in it.

The point is, there's going to be dozens of new star nations forming, some will stay small, some will break up, some will be peaceful (relatively) mergers, others formed by conquest (remember there are systems in the Shell, Verge and even the Core that don't like other systems and would likely use the chaos to get in a hit or four if they can), but there will be some fairly large political organizations forming. The RF's forming won;y necessarily stand out more than any other one will, especially since I am led to understand the systems that will make up the RF aren't anywhere near the Mesa system.

The only way I see the GA catching onto who created and runs the RF is if the RF uses ships with the streak and spider drives, or any of the other tech the renegade Manpower scientist (Simoen's? is his name?)has told the GA about.

Several things occur to me. First is that we have textev that Simoes doesn't know anything about either Darius or the RF. President Pritchard and Queen Elizabeth have postulated the existence of both, but as far as we know they have no clue about where to look for either.

Second is that the RF planets and Mesa are close enough together for the big meeting on Mannerheim to take place, with Albrecht being back on Mesa in a couple of weeks. Part of that "close together" may very well be via the Felix Junction or other hyper bridges. They are also definitely using the streak drive for communications.

First; it's true the GA doesn't know about Darius or the RF, but they do know that the MAlign is definitely up to something -big-. Especially since they know that the MAlign has spend centuries maneuvering entire star nations into place like pieces on a chess board. They know that the MAlign intentionally set the Republic of Haven and the Star Kingdom of Manticore against each other. and they are manipulating the Solarian League. Whatever people think of the MAlign, it doesn't think small. So they know the MAlign is an issue that will have to be dealt with.

Second; the GA knows about the spider and streak drives. The same streak drive that allows MAlign ships to cut weeks off of travel time because they can go 1-2 bands higher in hyperspace than any other vessel. This means Albrecht would be able to travel farther and faster than any other nation's ship's, so he could and likely did travel quite a distance to set up the meeting where he talked to the yet to come RF leaders. It's my opinion that Mesa is not really that close to the hidden system (can't remember it's name atm) or the systems that will become the RF. This separation means it's not going to be immediately obvious that the RF is tied to the MAlign in any way, unless they start using technology that the GA knows only the MAlign uses, such as the streak and spider drives.

Then there's this:

Mission of Honor, Chapter 38.2 wrote:"In its own way, this meeting's going to be even more critical than Oyster Bay was. No one's going public, but we'll be very quietly activating the Alignment as an actual star nation. That's going to represent a huge step, and one we're not going to want to make public until the League's started to show a few surface fissures, at least. But once we begin the process, we're going to have to bring in successively lower levels in all of our members star systems' governments. The fact that we're up to something is, frankly, likely to leak out a lot sooner than we'd really prefer. I doubt very much that anyone on the outside is going to figure out what we're really up to, but that's not going to guarantee we won't have a few dicey moments in the not too distant future. And most of the people who're going to be in Mannerheim for our little meeting didn't get where they are by being stupid. It's going to occur to them, too, that we're looking at what's in many ways our greatest period of vulnerability over the next T-year or two. That being the case, I'd like them to feel as reassured as possible about the hardware we used in Oyster Bay."

If they use the Lenny Dets as backup to the RF's navy, that'll really flag who's behind things for anyone who's looking.

Finally, all of this happens before the peace conference between Queen Elizabeth and President Pritchard, with the big reveal about the Mesan Alignment.

*nods* I'm not disputing this. I think the RF's formation will be taken much like the Maya sector's formation into an independent star nation will be taken. IE, some leaders in that region of space have thinking brain cells and saw the fracturing of the SL and took steps to keep the peace in their area. I don't think the GA would believe they know every system or group of systems that is thinking of making their own nation out of the SL's corpse like the Maya sector is. That would be an extreme amount of hubris and arrogance for the SEM and the GA to think that.

Now that Albrecht knows about the GA forming, it's thrown all of their plans into confusion and doubt. There's a very good chance they will pull off forming the RF without a hitch, but the aftermath is by no means a certainty as long as the GA exists. The entire plan of the RF depended on them as being the emerging forerunner of high tech in SL space and beyond. Haven and Manticore were supposed to be destroyed or wrecked/over extended militarily and economically. As it is, the moment the RF starts using their warships, they will be getting the direct attention of the GA and Andermani Empire since those people know that only the MAlign had access to that tech.

and knowing the GA knows about that tech and has a scientist that worked on them, the GA's R&D will be furiously working on their own versions. The streak and spider drive warships aren't going to be as effective as the MAlign/RF hoped for.