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Gbaba Facts

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Gbaba Facts
Post by Arol   » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:15 pm

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There have been numerous threads about the Gbaba, but here I prefer to get into what DW has let fall of actual hard core facts. If the few nuggets he has dropped so far can be characterised as bread crumbs; and if he has been as niggardly with the real things, then the birds around his home are down to skin and bone by now.

Fact: They are xenophobic and almost painstaking thorough to the nth degree. The genocide of earlier races, and the methodical way they hunted down any escaping ships must make this more fact then assumption.

Fact: They control number of worlds. The fleets they were able to put into action to defeat the Federation should make this a fact.

Fact: Their tech is at a slightly higher level then that of the Federation in Nimues time. Their ship design showed that newly commissioned ships were basically the same design as them that were commissioned centuries ago.

That’s what I’ve gotten as far as hard facts from the books are concerned.
There has been plenty of info regarding Federation tech and tactics and the people involved on the Federation side.
As far as the Gbaba goes, heck we don’t even know if they’re BEM’s, Machine Intelligence or maybe even …human!
I’m just wondering if DW has let a little nugget slide away, maybe in an interview or a book show; but I’m not optimistic, got’ a feeling he has been keeping his cards close to his chest.
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Re: Gbaba Facts
Post by MWadwell   » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:49 pm

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Arol wrote:There have been numerous threads about the Gbaba, but here I prefer to get into what DW has let fall of actual hard core facts. If the few nuggets he has dropped so far can be characterised as bread crumbs; and if he has been as niggardly with the real things, then the birds around his home are down to skin and bone by now.

Fact: They are xenophobic and almost painstaking thorough to the nth degree. The genocide of earlier races, and the methodical way they hunted down any escaping ships must make this more fact then assumption.

Fact: They control number of worlds. The fleets they were able to put into action to defeat the Federation should make this a fact.

Fact: Their tech is at a slightly higher level then that of the Federation in Nimues time. Their ship design showed that newly commissioned ships were basically the same design as them that were commissioned centuries ago.

That’s what I’ve gotten as far as hard facts from the books are concerned.
There has been plenty of info regarding Federation tech and tactics and the people involved on the Federation side.
As far as the Gbaba goes, heck we don’t even know if they’re BEM’s, Machine Intelligence or maybe even …human!
I’m just wondering if DW has let a little nugget slide away, maybe in an interview or a book show; but I’m not optimistic, got’ a feeling he has been keeping his cards close to his chest.


Well, the Federation would know more then we would, as it managed to defeat the inital incursion (and so, presumably capture (at least) wreckage).

And I believe that at the time of the Federations defeat, its tech had surpassed the Gbaba's.
.

Later,
Matt
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Re: Gbaba Facts
Post by Arol   » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:47 pm

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MWadwell wrote:Well, the Federation would know more then we would, as it managed to defeat the inital incursion (and so, presumably capture (at least) wreckage).

And I believe that at the time of the Federations defeat, its tech had surpassed the Gbaba's.

Sure the Federation knows more then us, but so does DW and a select few, but it’s what we know that I’m hunting for.

As for tech niveau, didn’t Owl/Merlin mention at one point that the Federation had “almost” reached that of the Gbaba.
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Re: Gbaba Facts
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:16 pm

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The phrase used in the early part of OAR is that the Federation was in a virtual dead heat with the Gbaba technologically.

IIRC the only mention in OAR of Gbaba "tech superiority" was that the Gbaba warships were faster than Federation warships.

The major advantage of the Gbaba was their numbers.

Their fleets greatly outnumbered the Federation fleets.

Which is why Safehold would need a higher technological level than the Federation had before the rematch with the Gbaba.

While I don't know anything about the Gbaba than what was mentioned in the books, we "know" that they weren't "machines" or "humans" because IMO David Weber would have mentioned that in OAR and in later books.

Arol wrote:Sure the Federation knows more then us, but so does DW and a select few, but it’s what we know that I’m hunting for.

As for tech niveau, didn’t Owl/Merlin mention at one point that the Federation had “almost” reached that of the Gbaba.
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Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
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Re: Gbaba Facts
Post by Kakai   » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:06 pm

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Arol wrote:
As far as the Gbaba goes, heck we don’t even know if they’re BEM’s, Machine Intelligence or maybe even …human!


They're rather neither humans nor machines - in OAR it's mentioned they were interrogating captured Federation humans, so if Federation knew that, they'd probably also knew if Gbaba were something surprising (AI or humans - from the future? lost colony?).

Anyway, I'd add the assumption Merlin (I think) made once that Gbaba may have no self-awareness.

I'd personally disagree with that, because I don't really believe you can man or fix high-tech (surpassing Federation, that is, so very high-tech) equipment without humanlike level of self-awareness. I'd actually bet on some sort of religious fanaticism - after all, that seems to be the theme of the series.

To the list of facts: they do not wish to communicate with us when they certainly could (remember the interrogations). That opens one hell of a room for speculations just why they don't.
-----------
When in mortal danger, when beset by doubt,
Run in little circles, wave your arms and shout.

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Re: Gbaba Facts
Post by Thucydides   » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:58 pm

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Since the Gbaba are essentially McGuffinite to start the series, I suspect that RFC has not actually given them much thought beyond the few "nuggets" of information we already know. Until they reappear in book 97, there is no real need for us to know more than they are an existential threat lurking "out there".

As for how many people you need to start a scientific, technological or social revolution, consider the city states of Ancient Greece or Renaissance Italy. These polities had far smaller populations and resource bases than many of their competitors, yet made great advances in science and technology, and were able to use their resources far more efficiently than their much larger competitors.

The Greeks managed to defeat the much larger and more populous Persian Empire in the Persian Wars. In the Peloponnesian War, Athens was eventually stripped of most of her possessions and lost the flower of her fleet and Army in Sicily, yet continued to fight Sparta ad her Allies (who were backed with Persian money) for another 9 years.

Venice, a small city state, was competitive with the Ottoman Empire for almost 200 years, and really only started to decline when the Venician Senate chose to concentrate on building an empire on Terra Firma, consuming much needed resources to the detriment of the fleet and overseas trade.

On a slightly larger scale, the United Provinces of the Netherlands pretty much fought the Spanish Habsburgs to a standstill, and Elizabethan England did the same despite the Spanish having the largest population and a virtually unquenchable flow of silver from the new worlds to finance their wars.

In all cases, while the smaller polities usually could demonstrate some technological advances over their opposing Empires, the real key was rapidly evolving social changes and the ability to use resources far more efficiently than anyone else. (Greek mercenaries were in high demand in Persia for their heavy armour, but what made them effective was the organization of the Phalanx. Similarly, the Ottomans often used galley designs and cannons smuggled or made by Italian renegades, but the Venetian fleet had far more combat power because the rowers were free men armed and expected to fight when the ships came in contact. Their merchants were also much better trained and organized, so the Venetians were also richer per capita than the Ottomans).

Size does matter in the end (the Athenians and Venetians eventually ran out of manpower), but having a flexible and open social structure coupled to a continental landmass (like the United States) should provide an unbeatable combination. The EoC may be overtaken by the Republic of Siddarkmark at some time in the future by leveraging these factors.
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Re: Gbaba Facts
Post by n7axw   » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:24 am

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Venice is an amazing story of a small city state established toward the closing years of the Western Roman Empire, managed to hold off the barbarians, thrived while everybody else endured the Dark Ages, and finally came to an end at the hands of Napoleon. Their time frame brackets more than a thousand years of colorful history.

Not long ago my ears pricked up to hear that there is a separatist movement yearning to restore the old Republic of Venice!

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Gbaba Facts
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:13 am

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One thing you're forgetting about the Greek and Italian city-states is that they were part of an overall "culture" which allowed for spread of ideas among the larger culture.

What somebody in one of the Italian city-states thought up would have spread to other parts of Italy and to the rest of Europe.

IMO when you talk about the numbers needed for "a scientific, technological or social revolution", it isn't just a matter of the number of people in one state, but as we see with Europe, it can be a matter of how many outside of that state are involved in the discussions.

Europe had a "common language" in Latin and had an educated class willing and able to discuss ideas with little regard to "national" boundaries.

It has been argued that the lack of a common government aided in the spread of ideas in Europe as no group had the power to stop the spread of ideas.

The Safehold Church had the power to stop the spread of ideas.

Once the Safehold Church loses that power, the spread of ideas on Safehold will continue.


Thucydides wrote:Since the Gbaba are essentially McGuffinite to start the series, I suspect that RFC has not actually given them much thought beyond the few "nuggets" of information we already know. Until they reappear in book 97, there is no real need for us to know more than they are an existential threat lurking "out there".

As for how many people you need to start a scientific, technological or social revolution, consider the city states of Ancient Greece or Renaissance Italy. These polities had far smaller populations and resource bases than many of their competitors, yet made great advances in science and technology, and were able to use their resources far more efficiently than their much larger competitors.

The Greeks managed to defeat the much larger and more populous Persian Empire in the Persian Wars. In the Peloponnesian War, Athens was eventually stripped of most of her possessions and lost the flower of her fleet and Army in Sicily, yet continued to fight Sparta ad her Allies (who were backed with Persian money) for another 9 years.

Venice, a small city state, was competitive with the Ottoman Empire for almost 200 years, and really only started to decline when the Venician Senate chose to concentrate on building an empire on Terra Firma, consuming much needed resources to the detriment of the fleet and overseas trade.

On a slightly larger scale, the United Provinces of the Netherlands pretty much fought the Spanish Habsburgs to a standstill, and Elizabethan England did the same despite the Spanish having the largest population and a virtually unquenchable flow of silver from the new worlds to finance their wars.

In all cases, while the smaller polities usually could demonstrate some technological advances over their opposing Empires, the real key was rapidly evolving social changes and the ability to use resources far more efficiently than anyone else. (Greek mercenaries were in high demand in Persia for their heavy armour, but what made them effective was the organization of the Phalanx. Similarly, the Ottomans often used galley designs and cannons smuggled or made by Italian renegades, but the Venetian fleet had far more combat power because the rowers were free men armed and expected to fight when the ships came in contact. Their merchants were also much better trained and organized, so the Venetians were also richer per capita than the Ottomans).

Size does matter in the end (the Athenians and Venetians eventually ran out of manpower), but having a flexible and open social structure coupled to a continental landmass (like the United States) should provide an unbeatable combination. The EoC may be overtaken by the Republic of Siddarkmark at some time in the future by leveraging these factors.
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
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Re: Gbaba Facts
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:00 pm

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::a Naughty Moose recognizes::
The Republic of Venice Museum! :lol:

Naughty Moose

n7axw wrote:[snip]
Not long ago my ears pricked up to hear that
there is a separatist movement yearning to
restore the old Republic of Venice!

Don
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Re: AW: Gbaba Facts
Post by friessomecircuits   » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:00 pm

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I don't really think that RFC really thought about the Gbaba in detail. They are definitely not the focus in a foreseeable Future. They rather seem to be a frame or a catalyst like in many Sc-Fi series, e.g. the Temporals in the Kantaki-Cycle, the Reapers in the Mass Effect Universe or the Collectors of the Justifier-Series.
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