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Military Speculations

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Re: Military Speculations
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:10 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Sending in a team with a half assed plan as soon as possible when speed is not essential is foolish and dangerous.


Who says they would attempt to occupy the Temple with a "half-assed plan?" Occupying the Temple (with a commando force) is a necessary prerequisite for gathering more information about the Temple.

1: Occupy the Temple, using whatever information CoC Priests and pilgrims who have been in the Temple -- Like Maikel and Pater Wylsynn -- to formulate an attack plan.

2: Send in Pater Wylsynn with his key and let him search the basements and gather what information he can and/or disable whatever is there that would react to the presence of unauthorized Federation Tech, like a PICA.

3: Bring in Merlin and/or Nimue to use whatever the Temple possesses to reprogram/disable the OBS.

4: "Safe" the offensive/defensive federation tech in the Temple.

5: Negotiate a peace treaty with the surviving Vicarate and go home.

IMHO, Steps 2, 3, & 4 must be accomplished before settling back to let Innovations happen for 20 years or so.
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Re: Military Speculations
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:12 pm

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The IC doesn't even know what the Key does. OWL and Nahrmahn tried to find out but the security was good enough to threaten OWL's programming. All they know is the Key can activate a use once in the direst of circumstances something. No ones if it activates the OBS control systems, awakens the Sleeping AI or something else entirely. The Key might actually hold the programming for an AI. Using it would call forth the very thing they all wish to avoid.

Because none of the IC knows whether any of this true, they should wait. Not waiting until they do know is accepting a half assed plan.

Weird Harold wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Sending in a team with a half assed plan as soon as possible when speed is not essential is foolish and dangerous.


Who says they would attempt to occupy the Temple with a "half-assed plan?" Occupying the Temple (with a commando force) is a necessary prerequisite for gathering more information about the Temple.

1: Occupy the Temple, using whatever information CoC Priests and pilgrims who have been in the Temple -- Like Maikel and Pater Wylsynn -- to formulate an attack plan.

2: Send in Pater Wylsynn with his key and let him search the basements and gather what information he can and/or disable whatever is there that would react to the presence of unauthorized Federation Tech, like a PICA.

3: Bring in Merlin and/or Nimue to use whatever the Temple possesses to reprogram/disable the OBS.

4: "Safe" the offensive/defensive federation tech in the Temple.

5: Negotiate a peace treaty with the surviving Vicarate and go home.

IMHO, Steps 2, 3, & 4 must be accomplished before settling back to let Innovations happen for 20 years or so.
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Re: Military Speculations
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:26 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Because none of the IC knows whether any of this true, they should wait. Not waiting until they do know is accepting a half assed plan.


The problem with your position is that the answers which would assure you it was safe to invade the Temple can only be answered by invading the Temple.
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Re: Military Speculations
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:38 pm

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Now you understand my desire to wait. Taking the Temple is essential to Merlin's ultimate success. Going in too early without knowing absolutely everything they can find out is too risky. They know the Return happens in 20 years or so. That means they have time to discover more information. I would agree that letting the Return happen as planned is not good but going in too soon might well be worse.


Weird Harold wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Because none of the IC knows whether any of this true, they should wait. Not waiting until they do know is accepting a half assed plan.


The problem with your position is that the answers which would assure you it was safe to invade the Temple can only be answered by invading the Temple.
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Re: Military Speculations
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:01 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Now you understand my desire to wait. Taking the Temple is essential to Merlin's ultimate success. Going in too early without knowing absolutely everything they can find out is too risky.


You're missing the point that Merlin and the IC already know as much as they can without gaining access to the Temple and waiting "for more information" is just a waste of time.
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Re: Military Speculations
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:09 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Now you understand my desire to wait. Taking the Temple is essential to Merlin's ultimate success. Going in too early without knowing absolutely everything they can find out is too risky.


You're missing the point that Merlin and the IC already know as much as they can without gaining access to the Temple and waiting "for more information" is just a waste of time.


Before the revelation of the Wylsyns Key, I would have agreed with you. Now, I don't. Between further research into decrypting the Key and a complete analysis of what might be found out, there are opportunities to find out more about the Temple. How many of Temple rumors suggestive of high tech are true? Are there ways to experiment and test those rumors? Are there ways to test Temple capabilities? Those are off the top of my head. I am sure there are many more things that might be learned from the Temple in the years they have.
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Re: Military Speculations
Post by Ramhawkfan   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:24 pm

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Before the revelation of the Wylsyns Key, I would have agreed with you. Now, I don't. Between further research into decrypting the Key and a complete analysis of what might be found out, there are opportunities to find out more about the Temple. How many of Temple rumors suggestive of high tech are true? Are there ways to experiment and test those rumors? Are there ways to test Temple capabilities? Those are off the top of my head. I am sure there are many more things that might be learned from the Temple in the years they have.[/quote]

For what it's worth, there is still the very real possibility of other secret groups, libraries, storehouses, etc. I tend to agree with Peter about not rushing in too soon.
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Re: Military Speculations
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:44 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Hey Don,

Not disagreeing about the Sleepers needing to be neutralized. My disagreement with doing so before the Inner Circle (IC) is prepared. Preparations will include finding out much more about the Temple than is currently known. Absent that data, I recommend the IC wait. Wait and prepare by teaching Father Paityr about computers, begin recruiting an assault force to be trained in Terran tech and most importantly using Aivah to learn as much as possible about the Temple.

Sending in a team with a half assed plan as soon as possible when speed is not essential is foolish and dangerous. They only have one chance to do this right. Take the time to research, prepare then execute the best plan possible. Not the best plan possible right now, but the best plan possible within the decade or two the IC believes it has.


I certainly have no objection to waiting if waiting improves chances of success. Also someone introduced Aivah here, more than likely in anticipation of what is probably Merlin's upcoming trip to Zion. Perhaps she does have access to info that would improve prospects for getting Paityr into the basement. We do know that she has at least one sourse within the temple itself...maybe someone who actually has the keys to the castle!!!

But consider: We really can't plan on having the full 20 years margin before sleepers awake. For one thing with Schuler's hologram to the Wylsyns, when does the clock start ticking? At the Day of Creation? At the end of the war between the archangels? At the time that the hologram is made? I haven't read that section recently, but what I do remember is that it was not clear. I remember wondering if Schuler was intending to be precise or mysterious using that thousand year figure as a symbol for an indeterninate time. Religious writing and revelation does a lot of that sort of thing.

My point is that we really don't know and the 20 year hiatus shouldn't be used as a benchmark for guessing when the archangels will return. They really could come back any time from shortly to so far into the future as to make them irrelavant to the story.

What I get out of all of this is that getting into the temple and gaining control of the computer should be expedited with all reasonable speed. That doesn't mean going off half cocked without careful planning or deliberation. But it does mean making it priority one.

As for entry, I see two options. Either you overwhelm the place with a force armed with edged weapons and escort Father Paityr to the door of the basement. Or you disguise a group of men as inquisitors, put Father Paityr in the middle of the group and have them casually enter the temple under the pretext of having an appointment with someone, say Rayno, and they escort him to the door to the basement.

What you don't do is enter with federation tech weapons until you have control of the computer and hopefully shut down what defenses there might be and are still functioning.

Hopefully the results of this are that if the sleepers are in the basement, having control of the computer would give you control of if or when they awaken. Also, you want to gain control of the OBS. If these things do not turn out to be possible, at bare minimum you are hoping to find out what you are really up against so you can start planning to cope with it.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Military Speculations
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:52 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Before the revelation of the Wylsyns Key, ...


The revelation of the Wylsynn Key makes neutralizing whatver is under the Temple even more urgent -- what if one of Clynntahn's minions has something similar?

They can hunt around outside of the Temple until even Merlin and Nimue die of old age, but they will do so knowing that the answers they seek are definitely found inside the Temple and only maybe found outside.

Sooner or later the Temple has to be invaded, and the innovation Merlin has set in motion is going to reach a point that should definitely trigger the OBS soon, will he, nil he. If the Temple and OBS haven't been neutralized before that happens, Merlin's plans for this generation are toast.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Military Speculations
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:38 pm

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Don,

Suppose the only way in requires terran weapons? Suppose the room Father Paityr has to go to only has a slot for the Key but no other access to the computer? That access requires going through the Temple walls. Terran armour walls. Perhaps there are other complications.

You need to recon the Temple with people who are familiar with terran tech. That means Father Paityr going in not to activate the Key, but to examine the activation room. He or some IC member needs examine as much of the Temple as possible well before the attack. The process of examination might take years. Take the time to do it right.

That means accepting the peace/truce when it is offered. Duchairn and Magwair will off Clyntahn to salvage something of the GoGA before the Allies take everything down. When offered, the Allies will accept and the cold war begins with a grudging acceptance of the terms by most of the jihadi nations.
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