Titles and ranks of Safehold

What I think happened is fairly simple, the Ranks of Nobility were granted to those who assisted the Arch-Angels against the rebellion. The original titles at least, and then it was merely a case of as and when needed to create new ones.

We know that you have to be confirmed by the Church so that is significant, as Cayleb was the first Monarch not confirmed into office in the history of safehold.

And they varied the titles based on who did what and where, especially when you look at just how certain cultures are, its almost as if they were guided by a singular entity at the start of their history.

Maybe the survivors of the war set up fake identities and lived as Kings... we know that they werent above having a bit of fun with the common folk if Paityr really is the decendant of Schuyler

Morden wrote:What I think happened is fairly simple, the Ranks of Nobility were granted to those who assisted the Arch-Angels against the rebellion. The original titles at least, and then it was merely a case of as and when needed to create new ones.

We know that you have to be confirmed by the Church so that is significant, as Cayleb was the first Monarch not confirmed into office in the history of safehold.

And they varied the titles based on who did what and where, especially when you look at just how certain cultures are, its almost as if they were guided by a singular entity at the start of their history.

Maybe the survivors of the war set up fake identities and lived as Kings... we know that they werent above having a bit of fun with the common folk if Paityr really is the decendant of Schuyler

Not really, before year 500 or so the king or monarch of each state only needed the approval of the archbishop, also the archbishop was choosen by the bishops of their location, near the year 500 a writing by the grand vicar said that the kings or monarchs and the archbishops needed to be confirmed by the council of vicars, they didn't make illegal the old rules but everyone acted under the new rules, so when maikel staynar as archbishop confirmed cayleb as king he did it by the "old" rules of the church, something that hasnt been done in 400 years or so, in other words Cayleb was confirmed by the church, also charis brought back most of the old rules of the church when they decided to do their schism, since another rule is that the bishops and priests of charis could choose their archbishop, thats why maikel send the document confirming himself with the signing of 19 of the 23 bishop that existed in charis, in little they did everything by the very old rules, meaning that the only way that the Go4 could do anything to them was by called them heretics and launching a jihad, since those rules while old were still legal, so they couldn't say that the actions of the bishops of charis or that the actions of maikel as archbishop were illegal because those rules were still in effect even if they were not being used anymore.

Charles83 wrote:

Morden wrote:What I think happened is fairly simple, the Ranks of Nobility were granted to those who assisted the Arch-Angels against the rebellion. The original titles at least, and then it was merely a case of as and when needed to create new ones.

We know that you have to be confirmed by the Church so that is significant, as Cayleb was the first Monarch not confirmed into office in the history of safehold.

And they varied the titles based on who did what and where, especially when you look at just how certain cultures are, its almost as if they were guided by a singular entity at the start of their history.

Maybe the survivors of the war set up fake identities and lived as Kings... we know that they werent above having a bit of fun with the common folk if Paityr really is the decendant of Schuyler

Not really, before year 500 or so the king or monarch of each state only needed the approval of the archbishop, also the archbishop was choosen by the bishops of their location, near the year 500 a writing by the grand vicar said that the kings or monarchs and the archbishops needed to be confirmed by the council of vicars, they didn't make illegal the old rules but everyone acted under the new rules, so when maikel staynar as archbishop confirmed cayleb as king he did it by the "old" rules of the church, something that hasnt been done in 400 years or so, in other words Cayleb was confirmed by the church, also charis brought back most of the old rules of the church when they decided to do their schism, since another rule is that the bishops and priests of charis could choose their archbishop, thats why maikel send the document confirming himself with the signing of 19 of the 23 bishop that existed in charis, in little they did everything by the very old rules, meaning that the only way that the Go4 could do anything to them was by called them heretics and launching a jihad, since those rules while old were still legal, so they couldn't say that the actions of the bishops of charis or that the actions of maikel as archbishop were illegal because those rules were still in effect even if they were not being used anymore.

I'll have to re-read book 2, I thought that the old rules were about a group selecting their own Archbishop, which is what they changed like 500 years before and that the signatures were to show that the Bishops approved. Might well be a mixture of both, but that I know was covered in the books, dont really remember much relevance towards the monarchy being changed 500 years before.

lyonheart wrote:Hi SpaceKiwi,

Excellent point!

While kings and kingdoms are certainly mentioned in the bible, could Chirhiro have inadvertently included such language in his scriptures?

Could the terms have been left in the language memory of the reprogrammed Adams and Eves?

Personally I agree that RFC decided to use terms we were already familiar with, because he feels the same way about such tricks in the fantasy genre, or Sharon found the terms too confusing.

L

Spacekiwi wrote:They might have had the words in the safeholdian bible if its based on the current bible, which calls heaven the kingdom of god and such....

I agree here. If RFC had called it the GroupPick of Siddarmark and the Great Gronk of Charis and made us figure out that these were what we call 'Republic' and 'King', and then kept using those artificial words (and some otherwise capable authors love to do just that), it would have been annoying.

For all we know, NONE of the words RFC is writing in colloquial English are the words used by the characters. RFC has just tacitly given all of us a virtual babel fish.

I think that the reason these ranks are used is that the original population of safehold were coming with whatever the Federation's language was, most likely English although may be Chinese, and therefore already had the words in their vocabulary. This was a modern language and the COGA was enough of a global force to keep the language from drifting.
Also the Safehold Bible was written in the language of the Terran Federation. This likely makes it the definitive basis for diplomatic language as I think that the only language it is printed in is Federation.

This is all conjecture, but IMHO are correct. Feel free to disagree.

csilkenat wrote:I think that the reason these ranks are used is that the original population of safehold were coming with whatever the Federation's language was, most likely English although may be Chinese, and therefore already had the words in their vocabulary. This was a modern language and the COGA was enough of a global force to keep the language from drifting.
Also the Safehold Bible was written in the language of the Terran Federation. This likely makes it the definitive basis for diplomatic language as I think that the only language it is printed in is Federation.

This is all conjecture, but IMHO are correct. Feel free to disagree.

I have a suspicion that the reason these ranks are used is because that's what RFC chose to use. Nothing more complicated than that.

Another reason "feudalism" might have been nudged along is the suppressing nature of the system.

I realize this thread is over a year old. My apologies if bumping it is against the culture here. I figured it was as good a place as any to ask my question about the nobility structure.

We have in the noble ranks--

Knight
Baronet
Baron
Earl
Duke
Grand Duke
Prince
King
Emperor

(and their female equivalents, of course)

What happened to the intermediate ranks of viscount and marquis? The title of marquis/ marquess/ margrave descends (on earth at least!!) from nobility who have a feudal estate that is on a border, in the "march lands" (that are even present on Safehold), and the responsibility to defend that border.

All,
While this post is on Siddarmark, we can find our answer in Harchong's structure. The various nations were built, probably intentionally, to have different power structures. It was likely in 'the Plan' to use these differing structures (structural bureaucrat rule vs. monarchy vs. limited republic) to determine which would remain the most stable over time. While they were confident of the COGA's stablilty, it was unclear (especially in light of the Church of England and the Time of Two Popes) that a standard feudal monarchy would be resilient over centuries.
Also of danger was the Chinese feudal system, with it's tendency to produce corruption in bureaucrats and the irritating tendency of very smart people finding ways to bribe officials into turning a blind eye (i.e. gunpowder).
The limited republic, using some of the Italian city-states like Venice, has an enduring capacity because of its capacity to trim branches that don't perform well and replace them with others. It does, however, tend to breed more intrigue and independence.
Off the mainland, societies generally had to go to monarchal structures; it's a function of survival until the society reaches a certain point against hostile wildlife and bandits.
The inclusion of a parliament/congress in all these systems is a no-brainer because of the church. Without a parliament, it is not a certainty that the COGA would have easy access to the halls of power in a nation-state. Confessors are important, but having a voting -and just as importantly a speaking - interest in the process of lawmaking allows the COGA to make sure things stay in line.

Or at least that was the plan...

Just my 2 centicreds.

DAve

Hank Plantagenet wrote:I realize this thread is over a year old. My apologies if bumping it is against the culture here. I figured it was as good a place as any to ask my question about the nobility structure.

We have in the noble ranks--

Knight
Baronet
Baron
Earl
Duke
Grand Duke
Prince
King
Emperor

(and their female equivalents, of course)

What happened to the intermediate ranks of viscount and marquis? The title of marquis/ marquess/ margrave descends (on earth at least!!) from nobility who have a feudal estate that is on a border, in the "march lands" (that are even present on Safehold), and the responsibility to defend that border.

Viscount and Marquis were not really traditional. Viscount did not exist everywhere, and often it was not a hereditary title. Marquis was originally the equivalent of a Count--the difference is that his land was called "March" instead of a "County", and was on the borders of the country (also called the marchlands). Marquis did not get added to the British peerage titles until long after the Middle Ages.