Reaction to Gbabba reveal

PeterZ wrote:Bottom line is that Merlin won't be able to destroy the Sleepers unseen. So any attempt to do so will be proof that he serves darkness and by extension Charis serves darkness too. Talk about the Ashes of Victory.

OK, but even if everyone else thinks they're evil, they've still got Merlin/Owl's knowledge. With the OBS disabled, they are pretty much unlimited -- soon the mainland won't be able to threaten them even with the population disparity, they'll be pitting Napoleonic War ships against WWII battleships or better.

I don't see that they really NEED the mainland. Charis could be launching spaceships while the mainland's still in the 1800s.

What makes you think only the mainland will believe they are evil? If loyal Charisians begin thinking they are evil, no one will serve Cayleb and Sharley. I doubt they could survive the revolutions alive let alone in power.

cralkhi wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Bottom line is that Merlin won't be able to destroy the Sleepers unseen. So any attempt to do so will be proof that he serves darkness and by extension Charis serves darkness too. Talk about the Ashes of Victory.

OK, but even if everyone else thinks they're evil, they've still got Merlin/Owl's knowledge. With the OBS disabled, they are pretty much unlimited -- soon the mainland won't be able to threaten them even with the population disparity, they'll be pitting Napoleonic War ships against WWII battleships or better.

I don't see that they really NEED the mainland. Charis could be launching spaceships while the mainland's still in the 1800s.

cralkhi wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Bottom line is that Merlin won't be able to destroy the Sleepers unseen. So any attempt to do so will be proof that he serves darkness and by extension Charis serves darkness too. Talk about the Ashes of Victory.

OK, but even if everyone else thinks they're evil, they've still got Merlin/Owl's knowledge. With the OBS disabled, they are pretty much unlimited -- soon the mainland won't be able to threaten them even with the population disparity, they'll be pitting Napoleonic War ships against WWII battleships or better.

I don't see that they really NEED the mainland. Charis could be launching spaceships while the mainland's still in the 1800s.

They need the mainlad, or at least a significant portion of the mainland because the EOC alone is too small to develop the sort of industrial base it will take to build the navy it will take to face down the Gbabba. In fact, Safehold might be too small. It might be necessary to develop a multisystem polity the size of the Terran Federation before that confrontation comes with tech that builds upon and advances what's in Owl's data base. Dunno. Interesting thought to brainstorm here or in a separate thread.

Don

n7axw wrote:

cralkhi wrote:OK, but even if everyone else thinks they're evil, they've still got Merlin/Owl's knowledge. With the OBS disabled, they are pretty much unlimited -- soon the mainland won't be able to threaten them even with the population disparity, they'll be pitting Napoleonic War ships against WWII battleships or better.

I don't see that they really NEED the mainland. Charis could be launching spaceships while the mainland's still in the 1800s.

They need the mainlad, or at least a significant portion of the mainland because the EOC alone is too small to develop the sort of industrial base it will take to build the navy it will take to face down the Gbabba. In fact, Safehold might be too small. It might be necessary to develop a multisystem polity the size of the Terran Federation before that confrontation comes with tech that builds upon and advances what's in Owl's data base. Dunno. Interesting thought to brainstorm here or in a separate thread.

Don

This. You need a whole lot of trained brains working on advancing technology, and there's a limit to the proportion of people with the skills and interests to do that.
The bigger the population as a whole is, the bigger the number of people doing the science and engineering (and, incidentally, the bigger the number of people building the industry to keep things advancing).
To take the limiting case, one small city can't do all that much science on its own; it simply won't have enough scientists, enough resources to keep their labs working, or enough resources to build the things they come up with. How large a polity does it take to build an LHC equivalent? Or a prototype fusion reactor?
The EoC plus Siddarmark might be enough to get off Safehold and go colonise another world; it might not. It certainly won't be enough to fight and beat the Gbaba.

cralkhi wrote:
OK, but even if everyone else thinks they're evil, they've still got Merlin/Owl's knowledge. With the OBS disabled, they are pretty much unlimited -- soon the mainland won't be able to threaten them even with the population disparity, they'll be pitting Napoleonic War ships against WWII battleships or better.

I don't see that they really NEED the mainland. Charis could be launching spaceships while the mainland's still in the 1800s.

That's just not right. You forget that Merlin's entire purpose/goal is not for Charis to survive, but for all of humanity to survive the inevitable second encounter with the Gbaba.

No matter how powerful Charis might become, any effort to prepare humanity for that future confrontation will require the resources and effort of ALL of Safehold, not just 10-20% of the planetary population.

Looking at OTL, not even the United States with all of its power, wealth and technological know-how could hope to undertake a similar space program all by itself. Launch a spaceship or few that might eventually reach Mars or even further within our star system, yes. But undertake a space program to begin an interstellar colonization and exploration effort, no, I very much doubt it.

Besides, the pressure exerted by the survival imperative has already given Charis the victory. The CoGA is a Dead Church Walking. In order for both it and the mainland realms to survive any war against Charis, they HAD to begin adopting not only Charis' 'new' technologies, but also a new way of thinking that is utterly contrary to the very purpose for which the CoGA was created in the first place. We've already seen this happening, right from the second book onwards.

hanuman wrote:No matter how powerful Charis might become, any effort to prepare humanity for that future confrontation will require the resources and effort of ALL of Safehold, not just 10-20% of the planetary population.

I don't think I agree.

I don't see why they need "all of Safehold in the near future. They don't really get to the point where the number of minds innovating becomes critical until they're past what Merlin / OWL can teach them, and that's a LONG way away. Before that point they have all the knowledge already available.

And they could colonize tons of other planets even if Safehold was still mostly primitive.

Looking at OTL, not even the United States with all of its power, wealth and technological know-how could hope to undertake a similar space program all by itself. Launch a spaceship or few that might eventually reach Mars or even further within our star system, yes. But undertake a space program to begin an interstellar colonization and exploration effort, no, I very much doubt it.

With right-now technology, no, interstellar isn't practical. If it was a major priority for the US -- as important in terms of money spent as the military or social programs -- we could totally colonize the solar system.

EDIT: Nuclear propulsion is totally within current tech and has been for 40+ years, it's just politically problematic. If it was a high enough priority, we could build an Orion nuclear-pulse ship and colonize the moons of Saturn.

But OWL's databases include how to build an FTL drive. With that technology, sure the US would be enough.

cralkhi wrote:

hanuman wrote:No matter how powerful Charis might become, any effort to prepare humanity for that future confrontation will require the resources and effort of ALL of Safehold, not just 10-20% of the planetary population.

I don't think I agree.

I don't see why they need "all of Safehold in the near future. They don't really get to the point where the number of minds innovating becomes critical until they're past what Merlin / OWL can teach them, and that's a LONG way away. Before that point they have all the knowledge already available.

Charis can probably go it alone as long as the rest of Safehold is neutral. Unfortunately, unless Charis can change the way the rest of Safehold thinks about innovation, Neutral is the last thing they'll encounter.

Safehold doesn't need just innovation, it needs world-wide acceptance of innovation.