Portable twelve pounders as a bodyguard?

Tenshinai wrote:Nah, i generally leave that to the severe gun-nuts.

That would be a fair description of me. I've been shooting since I was 8, competing with, reloading and casting bullets for (with both black powder and smokeless) pre-1899 design firearms for about 25 years.

Tenshinai wrote:Fail. A cast lead bullet hitting steel will start to deform instantly on impact, as such the contact surface may effectively be that of the caliber of the bullet, or more, or less all depending on exact hardness of the metals involved and impact properties.

Actually, NOT a fail.

I was there- standing about 15 feet behind and to one side of the shooter in question when it happened (it happened at a match) and was one of the 3 range officers that went down range after the range was declared cold to inspect for possible damage. I saw the shot fired, saw the target shiver under the impact and saw the damage when the shooting string was completed and the range was safe for us to advance and make a closer inspection.

Tenshinai wrote:Yes, and the softer the bullet, the more energy will be lost while doing so.

One problem however is that only a fool would use hardmetal bullets in a pistol, as pistols are generally used at shorter range, and hardmetal bullets hitting metal can ricochet straight back at you with anything up to deadly results.

Quite right. I've been hit by cast bullets that were made of too hard an alloy that fragmented or just ricocheted back. I've got a scar on my right shin from a 250gr .45 Colt bullet some new guy made that was too hard that ended up coming back and hitting me.

Before you start categorically refuting, you may want to do some research into bullet casting and the lead alloys that can be easily made- and the resulting changes in hardness those alloys cause when used in bullets.

Pure (100%) lead is soft enough that it will 'splat' like you mentioned when it hits a hard surface. By adding small percentages of tin, antimony (called 'false silver' in the books) or a few other metals, you end up changing the hardness of the dramatically. Pure lead has a Brinell hardness of 5HB and lead alloys can measure up to 22HB.

Tenshinai wrote:1600fps is nothing extreme. The good old 1905 Mauser has a V0 at 2600-2700fps.

That's an apples and oranges comparison. Completely different projectile designs, completely different propellents. The 'M96' round designed my RFC in the books is at LEAST a generation- if not two- from the 8x57mm Mauser.

RFC's round is a large bore (.45") lead alloy gaschecked bullet propelled by black powder.

(Except for the gascheck, it would be contemporaneous to the .45-70 and the 577/450 Martini-Henry.)

The 8x57mm is a mid bore (.323")jacketed bullet propelled by smokeless powder.

(Which was part of the generation of cartridges that were designed to replace the .45-70's and 577/450's of the world.)

Tenshinai wrote:I have trouble agreeing with that. The link above gives a hint of what is needed to punch through armour reliably with a partially soft bullet, and even if the stated breastplates top out at a paltry 3mm, which is unlikely in an environment where firearms have begun to be used, soft and slow bullets will still have issues punching through three separate objects.

Again, you need to look into just how hard some of these lead alloys are and the increase in external hardness that quenching would give the bullet.

We're not talking about some soft lead ball that could have even been swaged from pure lead (some round ball projectiles are still swaged even today). Shooting something that soft at 1600fps would turn any rifle into a smoothbore in short order (pure lead rounds are normally kept below 1000fps @ the muzzle if you intend to keep leading to a minimum).

We are talking about a bullet that is designed to perform while being pushed fast enough to be pretty close to the upper edge of what you can do with a lead bullet without having the projectile melt as it goes down the barrel. If the new alloy's hardness is going to keep it from melting from just the friction of going down the barrel at that velocity, it will also have an impact on it's penetration ability against hard targets.

But don't take my word for it, you just go ahead.

Actually, NOT a fail.

I was there- standing about 15 feet behind and to one side of the shooter in question when it happened (it happened at a match) and was one of the 3 range officers that went down range after the range was declared cold to inspect for possible damage. I saw the shot fired, saw the target shiver under the impact and saw the damage when the shooting string was completed and the range was safe for us to advance and make a closer inspection.

I think you missed what i was stating as fail.

You were talking about a 1/4" single steelplate, i was referring to the same thing happening when trying to get it to happen with 2 consecutive plates. As that was the original statement in the thread.

Punching through a single steel plate is very different from going through 2 or more.
Again, if it is a soft bullet, the first plate you shoot through will "splat" the bullet, which will severely reduce it´s ability to punch through the second plate.

Also, it is specifically stated to be a low velocity, heavy bullet, this means a crapload of energy is going to be lost during the first penetration.

My statement of fail was that you used an example that was effectively irrelevant due to the different situation.

Also, do remember the links i posted earlier? A vastly more powerful RIFLEROUND (almost 3000 ft lb ), fails to penetrate a 1" SOFT steel plate. AP ammo fails to penetrate 1.5".

And you do know that spaced armour is used because it is more effective than the same thickness of metal in a single plate?
And without AP ammo, that advantage goes further up.

Pure (100%) lead is soft enough that it will 'splat' like you mentioned when it hits a hard surface. By adding small percentages of tin, antimony (called 'false silver' in the books) or a few other metals, you end up changing the hardness of the dramatically. Pure lead has a Brinell hardness of 5HB and lead alloys can measure up to 22HB.

And mild steel has a Brinell value of well over 100. The change for lead does not make a huge difference in regards to penetration.

The 'M96' round designed my RFC in the books is at LEAST a generation- if not two- from the 8x57mm Mauser.

Could you please use the M896 name that RFC himself used when posting at least?
The M96 was quite a popular rifle here and it is not the same thing as the M96 is a REAL, historical rifle and the M896 isn´t.

If the new alloy's hardness is going to keep it from melting from just the friction of going down the barrel at that velocity, it will also have an impact on it's penetration ability against hard targets.

Even if its Brinell is in the 30s, it is effectively unimportant. Steel is still MUCH harder, providing plenty of time for a splat, possibly even needing it to punch through the first plate without the bullet ending up in pieces.

dont forget the weight of his big brass ones for doing what he did.... those probably add at least a few kilos and some extra protection from groin and pelvis shots....

AirTech wrote:

Tenshinai wrote:
And there was a criminal in Australia early 20th century who made himself an armour that covered him almost completely, and then "went to town", the police used up hordes of bullets before taking him down, by shooting at the soles of his feet as he walked. Those were the only places his armour couldn´t prevent the bullets from causing real harm.

Ned's armor weighed in at 44kg (97lb) and was made from plow blades. He was brought down with shots to the lower legs (not feet) after he came back behind the attacking troopers after escaping the initial attack. (You don't wear 44 kilos on a route march). Breast plates rather went out of favor with the invention of the rifle as they were usually made from wrought iron (not good manganese steel) and were no match for a 50 caliber minie ball.

Wow. On Safehold forums I learn more in one day than I do in the semester of history lessons.

Anyway, I think I may be wrong but aren't guns that can break through two breastplates and damage the target kind of dangerous for Merlin's bodyguard job? IMHO, if we have an unarmored attacker (and somebody who'd attack Cayleb is more likely a Heinree-type fellow than fully-armed soldier - imagine the latter getting close to the Emperor!) then bullet with this power is likely to pass through the body and then hit something behind. It's one thing if behind there's wall and then there's another if behind there's Cayleb. Shouldn't Merlin opt for something with less penetrating power? He can headshot any assassin no problem, after all, so punching through armor is not a problem.

BTW, Tenshinai, did this criminal protected his entire face somehow or were the policeman trying to stop him rather than kill him?

Kakai wrote:Wow. On Safehold forums I learn more in one day than I do in the semester of history lessons.

Anyway, I think I may be wrong but aren't guns that can break through two breastplates and damage the target kind of dangerous for Merlin's bodyguard job? IMHO, if we have an unarmored attacker (and somebody who'd attack Cayleb is more likely a Heinree-type fellow than fully-armed soldier - imagine the latter getting close to the Emperor!) then bullet with this power is likely to pass through the body and then hit something behind. It's one thing if behind there's wall and then there's another if behind there's Cayleb. Shouldn't Merlin opt for something with less penetrating power? He can headshot any assassin no problem, after all, so punching through armor is not a problem.

BTW, Tenshinai, did this criminal protected his entire face somehow or were the policeman trying to stop him rather than kill him?

The wikepedia article on Ned Kellyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly is vast, but does have some pics of his armour - some of which seem to have bullet holes in - though in other pics they seem to be dents.

from the article- there is a bit about the armour...

The gang's armour was made of iron a quarter of an inch thick, and consisted of a long breast-plate, shoulder-plates, back-guard, and helmet. The helmet resembled a nail can without a crown, and included a long slit for the eyes. The suits' separate parts were strapped together on the body while the helmet was separate and sat on the shoulders, allowing it to be removed easily.

Ned Kelly's armour weighed 44 kilograms (97 lb). His suit was the only one to have an apron at the back, but all four had front aprons. Padding is only known from Ned's armour and it is not clear if the other suits were similarly padded. Ned wore a padded skull cap and his helmet also had internal strapping so that his head could take some of the weight. After the shootout there were five bullet marks on the helmet, three on the breast-plate, nine on the back-plate, and one on the shoulder-plate

Hi Isaac_Newton,

Kakai, if you Google Ned Keely who's been touted as Australia's most famous country hero for decades, his armor is still on display.

For the record it was 1880, not the twentieth century.

I first came across him in Isaac Asimov's Science fiction Magazine in July of 1972 [it might have been the August issue], about some rabid Irish who wanted to rewrite history by going back in time and creating an IRA empire out of Australia via taking over their ancestors' minds etc and one of them chickens out, though he's a character in some famous author's continuing series.

Yup, scifi magazines are some of the best educational tools ever.

L

isaac_newton wrote:

Kakai wrote:Wow. On Safehold forums I learn more in one day than I do in the semester of history lessons.

Anyway, I think I may be wrong but aren't guns that can break through two breastplates and damage the target kind of dangerous for Merlin's bodyguard job? IMHO, if we have an unarmored attacker (and somebody who'd attack Cayleb is more likely a Heinree-type fellow than fully-armed soldier - imagine the latter getting close to the Emperor!) then bullet with this power is likely to pass through the body and then hit something behind. It's one thing if behind there's wall and then there's another if behind there's Cayleb. Shouldn't Merlin opt for something with less penetrating power? He can headshot any assassin no problem, after all, so punching through armor is not a problem.

BTW, Tenshinai, did this criminal protected his entire face somehow or were the policeman trying to stop him rather than kill him?

The wikepedia article on Ned Kellyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly is vast, but does have some pics of his armour - some of which seem to have bullet holes in - though in other pics they seem to be dents.

from the article- there is a bit about the armour...

The gang's armour was made of iron a quarter of an inch thick, and consisted of a long breast-plate, shoulder-plates, back-guard, and helmet. The helmet resembled a nail can without a crown, and included a long slit for the eyes. The suits' separate parts were strapped together on the body while the helmet was separate and sat on the shoulders, allowing it to be removed easily.

Ned Kelly's armour weighed 44 kilograms (97 lb). His suit was the only one to have an apron at the back, but all four had front aprons. Padding is only known from Ned's armour and it is not clear if the other suits were similarly padded. Ned wore a padded skull cap and his helmet also had internal strapping so that his head could take some of the weight. After the shootout there were five bullet marks on the helmet, three on the breast-plate, nine on the back-plate, and one on the shoulder-plate

Tenshinai wrote:

Actually, NOT a fail.

I was there- standing about 15 feet behind and to one side of the shooter in question when it happened (it happened at a match) and was one of the 3 range officers that went down range after the range was declared cold to inspect for possible damage. I saw the shot fired, saw the target shiver under the impact and saw the damage when the shooting string was completed and the range was safe for us to advance and make a closer inspection.

I think you missed what i was stating as fail.

You were talking about a 1/4" single steelplate, i was referring to the same thing happening when trying to get it to happen with 2 consecutive plates. As that was the original statement in the thread.

Punching through a single steel plate is very different from going through 2 or more.
Again, if it is a soft bullet, the first plate you shoot through will "splat" the bullet, which will severely reduce it´s ability to punch through the second plate.

Also, it is specifically stated to be a low velocity, heavy bullet, this means a crapload of energy is going to be lost during the first penetration.

My statement of fail was that you used an example that was effectively irrelevant due to the different situation.

Also, do remember the links i posted earlier? A vastly more powerful RIFLEROUND (almost 3000 ft lb ), fails to penetrate a 1" SOFT steel plate. AP ammo fails to penetrate 1.5".

And you do know that spaced armour is used because it is more effective than the same thickness of metal in a single plate?
And without AP ammo, that advantage goes further up.

Pure (100%) lead is soft enough that it will 'splat' like you mentioned when it hits a hard surface. By adding small percentages of tin, antimony (called 'false silver' in the books) or a few other metals, you end up changing the hardness of the dramatically. Pure lead has a Brinell hardness of 5HB and lead alloys can measure up to 22HB.

And mild steel has a Brinell value of well over 100. The change for lead does not make a huge difference in regards to penetration.

The 'M96' round designed my RFC in the books is at LEAST a generation- if not two- from the 8x57mm Mauser.

Could you please use the M896 name that RFC himself used when posting at least?
The M96 was quite a popular rifle here and it is not the same thing as the M96 is a REAL, historical rifle and the M896 isn´t.

If the new alloy's hardness is going to keep it from melting from just the friction of going down the barrel at that velocity, it will also have an impact on it's penetration ability against hard targets.

Even if its Brinell is in the 30s, it is effectively unimportant. Steel is still MUCH harder, providing plenty of time for a splat, possibly even needing it to punch through the first plate without the bullet ending up in pieces.

Spaced armor is effective against HEAT (High explosive anti tank)or shaped charges as it causes them to spray out the far side and spread the load - it is utterly ineffective against ballistic penetrators unless it blunts the penetrator decreasing sectional density - which is why Chobham armor uses a ceramic plate behind the first layer. For ball type penetrators (i.e. cannon balls) tests have shown an inch of solid steel out performs four layers of quarter inch. This is because the first layer deforms under the overload (i.e. the incoming force exceeds the tensile strength of the layer (hardness is irrelevant only force per unit area matters (sectional density and speed))and effectively swages the projectile, mechanically tears and then the action repeats on the next layer with successively smaller holes. This can be be demonstrated by the force required in putting a knife through a book compared to a similar thickness of MDF.

lyonheart wrote:For the record it was 1880, not the twentieth century.

Sorry about that, was a while since i read about him.

AirTech wrote:Spaced armor is effective against HEAT (High explosive anti tank)or shaped charges as it causes them to spray out the far side and spread the load - it is utterly ineffective against ballistic penetrators

That is incorrect. There is no short and simple statement that catches all the details, but spaced armour is generally a bonus against most kinds of penetrators, more in some cases, less in others.

AirTech wrote:unless it blunts the penetrator decreasing sectional density

Why don´t you try googling "breaker plate", for one simple description on how you are incorrect?

AirTech wrote:For ball type penetrators (i.e. cannon balls) tests have shown an inch of solid steel out performs four layers of quarter inch. This is because the first layer deforms under the overload (i.e. the incoming force exceeds the tensile strength of the layer (hardness is irrelevant only force per unit area matters (sectional density and speed))and effectively swages the projectile, mechanically tears and then the action repeats on the next layer with successively smaller holes. This can be be demonstrated by the force required in putting a knife through a book compared to a similar thickness of MDF.

Now then, your claim above is pretty much useless.

Wanna make a bet that that "cannon ball" had larger diameter than 1/4"?

That introduces the overmatch effect into the equation.

Hardness irrelevant? Right then, do you want to try the same test again but with a layer of Exote armour on top of one layer, replacing another layer? *splat*

Exote armour is one of the current breed of new so called "superfacehardened" materials.
2nd generation Exote armour is expected to make current DU tank gun ammo useless or nearly so, because the penetrator is more likely to break apart on hitting than it is to penetrate.
Theorised 3rd generation has been discussed as possibly completely obsoleting current KE penetrators.

Then of course there´s the matter about just what velocity the projectile has upon impact.
Do you know why that is a potential variable that does not directly have anything to do with "force per unit area", hmm?

Thanks for the article (It was late enough for me that Google didn't come to my mind)! But that still leaves my question - aren't that strong guns too strong to be used as bodyguard's weapon?