Space Combat

roseandheather wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:I hope we get back to the space combat soon. Unfortunately with the GA's massive tech edge the current battlefield is probably in the top 25 most mismatched wars in science fiction history. Hopefully that will change very soon.

On the one hand, the prospect of the Grand Alliance crushing the Alignment like so many insignificant bugs is a hugely appealing one for a multitude of reasons.

On the other hand, it would probably also be very boring.

So I will settle for plenty of exciting space battles in which the Alignment is eventually crushed like so many insignificant bugs.

What I would really like to see is the Solarian Raiders running into a Grayson force, yes I miss those guys, of older ships with similar ranges to the Solarian Navy. The tech advantage would still swing to the Graysons but they would have to work for it. Also, I miss watching a professional force facing a larger enemy and winning through guile and cunning. Plus it would illustrate for the reader in plain terms, that even if the tech was closely matched, decades of battlefield experience trump officers appointed because of political connections. Icing on the cake would be if Caslet was commanding the Grayson force. I know it can't happen. He is probably way to senior for that. I'll just have to hope to see Yu and Caslet in future books tearing it up with the Graysons.

Jeroswen wrote:What I would really like to see is the Solarian Raiders running into a Grayson force, yes I miss those guys, of older ships with similar ranges to the Solarian Navy. The tech advantage would still swing to the Graysons but they would have to work for it. Also, I miss watching a professional force facing a larger enemy and winning through guile and cunning. Plus it would illustrate for the reader in plain terms, that even if the tech was closely matched, decades of battlefield experience trump officers appointed because of political connections. Icing on the cake would be if Caslet was commanding the Grayson force. I know it can't happen. He is probably way to senior for that. I'll just have to hope to see Yu and Caslet in future books tearing it up with the Graysons.

I totally get where you're coming from - I miss my Graysons, too!! - but the one thing that you're missing is that Grayson is less likely to have older, technologically inferior ships than Manticore is. Pretty much all throughout the series, the Graysons have been the first to put bleeding-edge ships into space, because they have such an explosively expanding Navy and no backlog of older, outdated ships to weigh them down. I'd say chances are that, all told, Grayson's navy is even more technologically superior, on average, than Manticore's is, because they started with a totally blank slate.

Once the newest ships start rolling off the assembly lines at Bolthole, obviously, the Grand Alliance is going to have quite a bit more in the way of technological parity among its three star nations, since Blackbird, Hephaestus, Vulcan, and Weyland were all taken out in Oyster Bay and so Manticore and Grayson won't be building much of anything on their own, but Grayson still has plenty of tonnage in space - and the will to use it.

All that said, I would be ecstatic to see Caslet, Yu, Yanakov, and Brentworth back in the action in future books. Not to mention Miss Owens, who is probably going to wind up with a command of her own in the GSN sooner rather than later.

Oh, Alignment. I almost feel sorry for you.

roseandheather wrote: I totally get where you're coming from - I miss my Graysons, too!! - but the one thing that you're missing is that Grayson is less likely to have older, technologically inferior ships than Manticore is. Pretty much all throughout the series, the Graysons have been the first to put bleeding-edge ships into space, because they have such an explosively expanding Navy and no backlog of older, outdated ships to weigh them down. I'd say chances are that, all told, Grayson's navy is even more technologically superior, on average, than Manticore's is, because they started with a totally blank slate.

Once the newest ships start rolling off the assembly lines at Bolthole, obviously, the Grand Alliance is going to have quite a bit more in the way of technological parity among its three star nations, since Blackbird, Hephaestus, Vulcan, and Weyland were all taken out in Oyster Bay and so Manticore and Grayson won't be building much of anything on their own, but Grayson still has plenty of tonnage in space - and the will to use it.

Quite true, rose. After all, the first Medusas..err, Harringtons SD(P)s were Grayson, and if you believe the RFC chart that's around the Pearls of Weber site, the GSN was actually the superior to Manticore at the resumption of the Haven war, at least in terms of SD()P's.

All that said, I would be ecstatic to see Caslet, Yu, Yanakov, and Brentworth back in the action in future books. Not to mention Miss Owens, who is probably going to wind up with a command of her own in the GSN sooner rather than later.

Oh, Alignment. I almost feel sorry for you.

And don't forget Captain (probably Rear Admiral or better now) Greentree; last we saw him he was Captain of the Honor Harrington; he probably has an entire squadron by now.

Hutch wrote:
And don't forget Captain (probably Rear Admiral or better now) Greentree; last we saw him he was Captain of the Honor Harrington; he probably has an entire squadron by now.

How could I forget Greentree?? How?? Bad Rosie. Bad!!

I have been watching this thread and debating on whether or not to weigh in. Now I feel like I should. The space battles in the books, through "War of Honor", though less in "War of Honor" and "Ashe of Victory" have the quality that atrracted me to the books, the "Captains Chair" commanding is very appealing. Even when Harrington was and admiral and in general control of the engagement, not just here ship, it kept me in interest. As the battles raged, the political scenery in the background began to loom closer and closer. I love that, in both Manticore and Haven, espcially when the politics mixed heavily with the diplomacy with the various stages of Haven government. When the Grand Alliance was begun in "Mission of Honor" fealt a heart warming completion to the story, despite the looming Mesan Alignment. Since then I have felt a bit listless, like I have been wandering in a haze of the Honorverse without the a beacon. That beacon has always been Honor. I am curious to know if it is RFC intention to bring Honor back into the highlight, I guess I should say I am sure it is but when , because while she lives, and is left in the background, I find the story carrying on with inertia only. I like Mike and both Zelwiki and Cachet but I miss Honor and her death rides. I know she won't have more of her solo captain chair commands but her and Nimitz are truly missed by this reader, to the point that I almost wish she was killed when RFC intedned her to be. Everytime I read a new book I am looking for her to pop up and am disappointed when she has a chapter or 2 and that is it.
As to the space battles, I miss them and am concerned that bring them baclk will not be as entertaining as they once were, but have high hopes the Mesan Alignment will be a tough nut to crack, seeing as how the Grand Alliance tech allows them to steamroll the Solarian Leauge Navy.
I am sure I will get a few remarks about missing all the fine complex details RFC is setting up, but I get it, and I like those stories, but it feels like it is being drawn out a bit. I mean no offence by that but there it is.
I'd like to see more Honor grappling in duels with massive, or even small fleets, with new daring maneuvers to dazzle the enemy.
Please let me live...

Hutch wrote:Back to the older classics, R.U.R. (Rossums' Universal Robots), man vs. machine didn't work out too well for man, IIRC.

And in E.E. Smiths' Lensman and Skylark series, whatever 'superweapon' the baddies produced was trumped with a 'superduperweapon' by the goodguys, which led to their (inevitable) annihilation.

And for that matter, The MWW did it twice in one chapter in the Excalibur Alternative.

The difference here is that RFC has given us a reasonable historical rationale (as far as fiction goes) for why the difference in weapons is so great at this moment in time. Solarian arrogance and inertia + Manticore's 70 years of planning (Gram and it's projects) + Haven's need to stay within shouting distance = disparity.

And of course, the conquest of Earth in L Ron Hubbard's "Battlefield Earth" *holds his nose while mentioning it, as that was two of more excerable hours I've spent*

Of the examples given I don't know why I forgot about B5 but yeah that would definitely count. In many ways it reminds me most of the GA and SL stituation. If the Earth ships could manage to hit the Minbari they would hurt them but between Minbari stealth systems and Superior weapons Earth ships had trouble reaching effective range and hitting targets once they were in range.

And most of the others I either haven't read or didn't count as space combat IMO. I was limiting myself to cases where both sides had space warships.

Roguevictory wrote:Of the examples given I don't know why I forgot about B5 but yeah that would definitely count. In many ways it reminds me most of the GA and SL stituation. If the Earth ships could manage to hit the Minbari they would hurt them but between Minbari stealth systems and Superior weapons Earth ships had trouble reaching effective range and hitting targets once they were in range.

And most of the others I either haven't read or didn't count as space combat IMO. I was limiting myself to cases where both sides had space warships.

Don't forget the first encounters against the Shadows also, they had no way to harm them until the Mimbari came around with the Whitestars

Commodore Oakius wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:Of the examples given I don't know why I forgot about B5 but yeah that would definitely count. In many ways it reminds me most of the GA and SL stituation. If the Earth ships could manage to hit the Minbari they would hurt them but between Minbari stealth systems and Superior weapons Earth ships had trouble reaching effective range and hitting targets once they were in range.

And most of the others I either haven't read or didn't count as space combat IMO. I was limiting myself to cases where both sides had space warships.

Don't forget the first encounters against the Shadows also, they had no way to harm them until the Mimbari came around with the Whitestars

They could hurt them but it wasn't easy. The Narns managed to damage one by hitting one of its limbs with the main guns of two of their battlecruisers at the same time. Still counts IMO as does the time the Vorlons hit a Shadow fleet and wiped it out with no apparent losses. And Thirdspace, as much as I hate the movie, is close. You never see what their big ships can do but their fighters/gunboats took multiple hits from Whitestars to even hurt them.

Hi Commodore Oakius,

'Not going to happen, not going to go there'.

I want to say"poor baby", remember its only a story...

RFC has been dealing with this particular rant since at least AAC, and possibly WroH, or for 8-10 years; basically the message has been 'get over it'.

What else do you expect if HH is winning all this glory since OBS and somehow stays a ship captain?

Or were you expecting Admiral-Captain James Kirk?

CS Forrester meant to write about an anonymous RN ship captain who just 'did his duty' and never got recognised for it, only Horatio Hornblower wouldn't let him.

One reason people read fiction is they like the characters, but characters that stay the same aren't realistic NTM boring.

How many readers would have stuck around for endless repeats of OBS?

Frankly the odds of her getting an SD or even an a DN after Nike were predictably low given the story imperative, since when would a waller with a junior captain be alone?

Raising to squadron command in FIE kept her on track book-wise, so where did you want her to jump off the tracks again?

What else could RFC do and still have a rational Honorverse?

L

Commodore Oakius wrote:I have been watching this thread and debating on whether or not to weigh in. Now I feel like I should. The space battles in the books, through "War of Honor", though less in "War of Honor" and "Ashe of Victory" have the quality that atrracted me to the books, the "Captains Chair" commanding is very appealing. Even when Harrington was and admiral and in general control of the engagement, not just here ship, it kept me in interest. As the battles raged, the political scenery in the background began to loom closer and closer. I love that, in both Manticore and Haven, espcially when the politics mixed heavily with the diplomacy with the various stages of Haven government. When the Grand Alliance was begun in "Mission of Honor" fealt a heart warming completion to the story, despite the looming Mesan Alignment. Since then I have felt a bit listless, like I have been wandering in a haze of the Honorverse without the a beacon. That beacon has always been Honor. I am curious to know if it is RFC intention to bring Honor back into the highlight, I guess I should say I am sure it is but when , because while she lives, and is left in the background, I find the story carrying on with inertia only. I like Mike and both Zelwiki and Cachet but I miss Honor and her death rides. I know she won't have more of her solo captain chair commands but her and Nimitz are truly missed by this reader, to the point that I almost wish she was killed when RFC intedned her to be. Everytime I read a new book I am looking for her to pop up and am disappointed when she has a chapter or 2 and that is it.
As to the space battles, I miss them and am concerned that bring them baclk will not be as entertaining as they once were, but have high hopes the Mesan Alignment will be a tough nut to crack, seeing as how the Grand Alliance tech allows them to steamroll the Solarian Leauge Navy.
I am sure I will get a few remarks about missing all the fine complex details RFC is setting up, but I get it, and I like those stories, but it feels like it is being drawn out a bit. I mean no offence by that but there it is.
I'd like to see more Honor grappling in duels with massive, or even small fleets, with new daring maneuvers to dazzle the enemy.
Please let me live...

lyonheart wrote:What else do you expect if HH is winning all this glory since OBS and somehow stays a ship captain?

Or were you expecting Admiral-Captain James Kirk?
[...]

Raising to squadron command in FIE kept her on track book-wise, so where did you want her to jump off the tracks again?

What else could RFC do and still have a rational Honorverse?

... though we're kind of in an odd spot now, with Oversteegen and Terekhov at junior flag rank, and Abby Hearns (who seems the most likely character to spend a lot of time doing 'captain' things in the future and in the spotlight) a bit too junior. Naomi Kaplan and Scotty Termaine are probably the most prominent characters with a single-ship command right now, and as much as some people may love them, they're not likely to be extended POV characters.