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Of Empires Formal and Informal....

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Of Empires Formal and Informal....
Post by Michael Riddell   » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:39 pm

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From "British Cruisers: Two World Wars and After" by the American naval historian Norman Friedman:

The third important cruiser role was protecting the Empire. It was complex partly because shadowing the formal British Empire was an informal one, consisting of close trading partners whose governments tended to benefit from British sea dominance. This informal empire was closely connected to the trading operations of the City of London, the financial centre of the United Kingdom and, before the First World War, the single most important financial centre of the world. The City financed world trade, and it well understood that free trade (free, for example, from anti-trade warfare) was key to British prosperity. It was understood that governments would favour Britain and the City if they understood that British sea dominance helped protect them.......... The informal empire seems to have been well understood in the British government, but rarely (if ever) discussed; it has surfaced in historical discussions only in recent years.
Informal empire could be expected to work as long as prospective partners could realistically expect Britain, which generally meant the Royal Navy, to help protect them. When someone wrote that 'trade follows the flag', what was often meant was that a country shielded by the Royal Navy would feel inclined to support that protection by buying British, and using British banks to float it's loans. In a sense informal empire justified the cruiser squadrons maintained on foreign stations between the two world wars. The stations were revived after the Second World War, but could not be maintained for long, as the war had destroyed too much of the British economy


Then there's this in the notes section:

The position of the United States within the informal empire but also as a force attempting to disrupt the formal empire gives some idea of the complexity of informal empire. Much of the formal empire was obtained to support the trading requirements of the informal empire; places like Hong Kong were valuable as trading ports, not in themselves. The British (or at least some of them) seem to have been unique in the nineteenth and early twentieth century in accepting the modern idea that investment and return were what counted, not physical control; hence many modern claims that conquest does not pay. Of course the British (or at least some of them, in government and the City) well understood that control of some territory made it more attractive for informal-empire partners to work with the British.

Right, after that wall-o-text, I think we have a better idea of the tasks and situations faced by both Manticore and the League, IMHO.

One the one hand, prior to the formation of the Star Empire, Manticore was very much in "Informal Empire" mode - no 'overseas territories' to protect, but a major financial and trade centre requiring dispersed squadrons to protect trade with friendly governments buying Manticoran in return for protection. On the other, the League is a "Formal Empire", but must have an "Informal Empire" lurking in the shadows, maintained by the transtellars, OFS and the Bureaucracy. The demands of both explain both the size of Frontier Fleet and why it seems to have an awful lot of Battlecruisers. Trade protection, security and the needs of the "Informal Empire" means going for the most capable platform to fulfill those missions and building as many as can be financially afforded.

What does everyone think?

Also, was RFC aware of the "Informal" British Empire when he created Manticore and it's situation?

Mike. :)
---------------------
Gonnae no DAE that!

Why?

Just gonnae NO!
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Re: Of Empires Formal and Informal....
Post by dreamrider   » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:41 pm

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Michael Riddell wrote:Also, was RFC aware of the "Informal" British Empire when he created Manticore and it's situation?

Mike. :)


Having read basically ALL of David's pearls over the last 20 years, and knowing his academic history, and spoken with him on several occasions, I will endeavor to answer on his behalf:

Yes

dreamrider :lol:
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Re: Of Empires Formal and Informal....
Post by hanuman   » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:46 pm

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Michael Riddell wrote:From "British Cruisers: Two World Wars and After" by the American naval historian Norman Friedman:

The third important cruiser role was protecting the Empire. It was complex partly because shadowing the formal British Empire was an informal one, consisting of close trading partners whose governments tended to benefit from British sea dominance. This informal empire was closely connected to the trading operations of the City of London, the financial centre of the United Kingdom and, before the First World War, the single most important financial centre of the world. The City financed world trade, and it well understood that free trade (free, for example, from anti-trade warfare) was key to British prosperity. It was understood that governments would favour Britain and the City if they understood that British sea dominance helped protect them.......... The informal empire seems to have been well understood in the British government, but rarely (if ever) discussed; it has surfaced in historical discussions only in recent years.
Informal empire could be expected to work as long as prospective partners could realistically expect Britain, which generally meant the Royal Navy, to help protect them. When someone wrote that 'trade follows the flag', what was often meant was that a country shielded by the Royal Navy would feel inclined to support that protection by buying British, and using British banks to float it's loans. In a sense informal empire justified the cruiser squadrons maintained on foreign stations between the two world wars. The stations were revived after the Second World War, but could not be maintained for long, as the war had destroyed too much of the British economy


Then there's this in the notes section:

The position of the United States within the informal empire but also as a force attempting to disrupt the formal empire gives some idea of the complexity of informal empire. Much of the formal empire was obtained to support the trading requirements of the informal empire; places like Hong Kong were valuable as trading ports, not in themselves. The British (or at least some of them) seem to have been unique in the nineteenth and early twentieth century in accepting the modern idea that investment and return were what counted, not physical control; hence many modern claims that conquest does not pay. Of course the British (or at least some of them, in government and the City) well understood that control of some territory made it more attractive for informal-empire partners to work with the British.

Right, after that wall-o-text, I think we have a better idea of the tasks and situations faced by both Manticore and the League, IMHO.

One the one hand, prior to the formation of the Star Empire, Manticore was very much in "Informal Empire" mode - no 'overseas territories' to protect, but a major financial and trade centre requiring dispersed squadrons to protect trade with friendly governments buying Manticoran in return for protection. On the other, the League is a "Formal Empire", but must have an "Informal Empire" lurking in the shadows, maintained by the transtellars, OFS and the Bureaucracy. The demands of both explain both the size of Frontier Fleet and why it seems to have an awful lot of Battlecruisers. Trade protection, security and the needs of the "Informal Empire" means going for the most capable platform to fulfill those missions and building as many as can be financially afforded.

What does everyone think?

Also, was RFC aware of the "Informal" British Empire when he created Manticore and it's situation?

Mike. :)


Mike, a big problem with an informal empire is that, when the stinky stuff hits the fan, the imperial heartland cannot depend on any dependencies to help with defraying the cost of defending the empire. (Manticore?)

Of course, the same might be true of a formal empire, as well, depending on its nature. If the dependencies are unhappy with imperial rule, then the imperial heartland might easily find itself with a situation in which its dependencies use the onset of war - and the subsequent inability of the imperial heartland to enforce its rule - to assert their independence. (Solarian League?)
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Re: Of Empires Formal and Informal....
Post by Michael Riddell   » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:31 am

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dreamrider wrote:Having read basically ALL of David's pearls over the last 20 years, and knowing his academic history, and spoken with him on several occasions, I will endeavor to answer on his behalf:

Yes

dreamrider :lol:


I think so too, but I was hoping to tickle out an answer! ;)

hanuman wrote:Mike, a big problem with an informal empire is that, when the stinky stuff hits the fan, the imperial heartland cannot depend on any dependencies to help with defraying the cost of defending the empire. (Manticore?)

Of course, the same might be true of a formal empire, as well, depending on its nature. If the dependencies are unhappy with imperial rule, then the imperial heartland might easily find itself with a situation in which its dependencies use the onset of war - and the subsequent inability of the imperial heartland to enforce its rule - to assert their independence. (Solarian League?)


I think the idea of the "Informal Empire" is much more subtle than what most people are used to thinking of.

Let's admit it - mention the word "Empire" and everyone automatically thinks colonies and all the imperial pomp, glory and, yes, exploitation of native peoples and their resources.

No one seems to think that trade and finance are as much a part of that as the rest. After all, Britain 'acquired' India through the actions of the Honorable East India Company's trading activities. First a few trading stations like Madras and Calcutta, then wangling the ability to collect taxes in Bengal, taking over the province and absorbing it's army as it's own and finally expansion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

It's been described as Empire by accident!

Once you absorb the idea of an "Informal Empire" as detailed by Friedman, you could argue that Manticore was already an empire prior to becoming the SEM. It was just based on trade and finance, rather than territory.

Mike. :)
---------------------
Gonnae no DAE that!

Why?

Just gonnae NO!
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Re: Of Empires Formal and Informal....
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:39 am

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Interesting post, especially the quotes. I'm going to take a somewhat cynical viewpoint here.

Empires have four circles. The inner core, what we normally think of the Empire's center. Spain, Britain, the U.S. at different times in history. Then there's the second circle, which the author the OP quotes nicely delineates. The third circle is the resource colonies, and the fourth is the marches.

Now it's possible that the center could cultivate the resource colonies properly so that they continue to lay the golden eggs indefinitely, but historically it never happens. The center sucks the resource colonies dry, and then starts sucking the second tier dry.

In the SL, the Core worlds are the first tier, the Shell is the second and the Protectorates are the resource colonies. Historically, the resource colonies are converted into economic wasteland; the magic of democracy and free enterprise isn't going to suddenly revive them. The empire falls when it can no longer find new resource colonies to exploit to maintain its overbuilt infrastructure.

The SL is sitting in a spiral arm. Conceptually, you can think of it as a cylinder. In other words, the SL can't expand in a full sphere; it has to expand along the spiral arm because there aren't enough stars outside of the edges of the cylinder to matter.

And the Haven Sector is blocking one end of the cylinder....
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Re: Of Empires Formal and Informal....
Post by hanuman   » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:49 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:Interesting post, especially the quotes. I'm going to take a somewhat cynical viewpoint here.

Empires have four circles. The inner core, what we normally think of the Empire's center. Spain, Britain, the U.S. at different times in history. Then there's the second circle, which the author the OP quotes nicely delineates. The third circle is the resource colonies, and the fourth is the marches.

Now it's possible that the center could cultivate the resource colonies properly so that they continue to lay the golden eggs indefinitely, but historically it never happens. The center sucks the resource colonies dry, and then starts sucking the second tier dry.

In the SL, the Core worlds are the first tier, the Shell is the second and the Protectorates are the resource colonies. Historically, the resource colonies are converted into economic wasteland; the magic of democracy and free enterprise isn't going to suddenly revive them. The empire falls when it can no longer find new resource colonies to exploit to maintain its overbuilt infrastructure.

The SL is sitting in a spiral arm. Conceptually, you can think of it as a cylinder. In other words, the SL can't expand in a full sphere; it has to expand along the spiral arm because there aren't enough stars outside of the edges of the cylinder to matter.

And the Haven Sector is blocking one end of the cylinder....


John, Sol sits smack in the middle of the spiral arm, in terms of its distance from the 'flat sides' of the galactic disk. And the disk is much 'thicker' than a mere 1000 light years, if my memory serves. So there should be heaps of space left to expand 'upwards' and 'downwards'.
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Re: Of Empires Formal and Informal....
Post by hanuman   » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:18 pm

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hanuman wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:Interesting post, especially the quotes. I'm going to take a somewhat cynical viewpoint here.

Empires have four circles. The inner core, what we normally think of the Empire's center. Spain, Britain, the U.S. at different times in history. Then there's the second circle, which the author the OP quotes nicely delineates. The third circle is the resource colonies, and the fourth is the marches.

Now it's possible that the center could cultivate the resource colonies properly so that they continue to lay the golden eggs indefinitely, but historically it never happens. The center sucks the resource colonies dry, and then starts sucking the second tier dry.

In the SL, the Core worlds are the first tier, the Shell is the second and the Protectorates are the resource colonies. Historically, the resource colonies are converted into economic wasteland; the magic of democracy and free enterprise isn't going to suddenly revive them. The empire falls when it can no longer find new resource colonies to exploit to maintain its overbuilt infrastructure.

The SL is sitting in a spiral arm. Conceptually, you can think of it as a cylinder. In other words, the SL can't expand in a full sphere; it has to expand along the spiral arm because there aren't enough stars outside of the edges of the cylinder to matter.

And the Haven Sector is blocking one end of the cylinder....


John, Sol sits smack in the middle of the spiral arm, in terms of its distance from the 'flat sides' of the galactic disk. And the disk is much 'thicker' than a mere 1000 light years, if my memory serves. So there should be heaps of space left to expand 'upwards' and 'downwards'.


I apologize. According to Wikipedia the average thickness of the galactic disk is 1000 light years, so I stand corrected.
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Re: Of Empires Formal and Informal....
Post by Michael Riddell   » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:44 pm

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Posts: 352
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Location: Aberdeen, Scotland, UK.

Just to add a bit more information on the subject, here's two essays on the idea of "Informal Empire":

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/ipe/gallagher.htm

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/article/informalempire.htm

There was also a two part documentary on BBC2 here in the UK called "The Birth of Empire: the East India Company" presented by the historian Dan Snow. Watching it made me think of the parallels between what the HEIC got up to in India and the activities of the Solly Transtellars in the Honorverse. The documentary isn't on BBC iPlayer anymore but the Wiki article I posted earlier covers things pretty well. I've had a bit of a dig and it seems that episode two, at least, can be viewed on Dailymotion but I'm not sure if it's flagged as region specific.

Mike. :)
---------------------
Gonnae no DAE that!

Why?

Just gonnae NO!
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