Logic behind splitting Lacoon?

n7axw wrote: Hi Hutch,

Your reasoning seems sound here, but I suspect that due to sheer distance, a substantial portion of the SLN won't have tumbled to what is going on, may not have even heard of Spindle or 2nd Manticore let alone understand the implications. That will make their resonse lethargic and slow to realize how things have changed.

Don

Howdy Don;

You bring up an excellent point. Manticore, despite being hundreds of light years from the Core, actually have the 'inner lines of communication' that military folks have sought for thousands of years. The domination of the wormholes allows for much faster reporting/reaction to events than the Centralized ISLN, where the reports need to go to Sol System and then disseminate outward.

Still, we know that word of New Tuscany is pretty much out to everybody and at least some knowledge of Spindle (wherever the ISLN Command chose to told their commanders) and presumably (given it was several weeks old as of the end of A Rising Thuinder) Second Manticore should at least be known to most of the central Core Worlds.

But the lack of relatively quick communication, combined with the flexibility learned in war by the GA commanders, presents an (IMHO) insurmountable challenge, even to FF or BF commanders that have more than three brain cells to rub together.

We shall see...eventually.


PS--is n7axw your Ham Radio call sign? I'm not a ham, but a good friend of mine is (w1aim).

Direwolf18 wrote:I always wondered about a Lacoon III. The gloves come off and Solarian League Merchant Shipping is now considered a legitimate target for commerce raiding.

I know when they first talk about Case Lacoon they do mention commerce raiding when they talk about it. But its been more denial of trade routes so far, not open hunting season on Solly Merchies. Which if the Transtellars thought Lacoon II was bad, they aint seen nothing yet.

Ooohh yes, I expect a lot of Sollie merchants are going to be very unhappy when the first 100-200 GA DD/CL/CA groups (say one Sag-A CA with a two Havenite CL's) come calling to systems with lots of merchant traffic.

At minuimum, it will divert ISLN units all over the map in (probably) futile efforts to chase the raiders down.

The Exchequer will probably faint at the cost of the prizes taken--may have to share that burden with Haven, who will probably be happy with both the Solly ships and
cargo....

And the transtellars' reaction to this will be...instructive.

We shall see.

Hutch wrote:

Direwolf18 wrote:I always wondered about a Lacoon III. The gloves come off and Solarian League Merchant Shipping is now considered a legitimate target for commerce raiding.

I know when they first talk about Case Lacoon they do mention commerce raiding when they talk about it. But its been more denial of trade routes so far, not open hunting season on Solly Merchies. Which if the Transtellars thought Lacoon II was bad, they aint seen nothing yet.

Ooohh yes, I expect a lot of Sollie merchants are going to be very unhappy when the first 100-200 GA DD/CL/CA groups (say one Sag-A CA with a two Havenite CL's) come calling to systems with lots of merchant traffic.

At minuimum, it will divert ISLN units all over the map in (probably) futile efforts to chase the raiders down.

The Exchequer will probably faint at the cost of the prizes taken--may have to share that burden with Haven, who will probably be happy with both the Solly ships and
cargo....

And the transtellars' reaction to this will be...instructive.

We shall see.

"At minimum, it will divert ISLN units all over the map in (probably) futile efforts to chase the raiders down."
Then there will be the groups that do successfully chase down the raiders, send a dispatch boat reporting that they have done so, and then cease to transmit signals ever again.

phillies wrote:
(Hutch:)"At minimum, it will divert ISLN units all over the map in (probably) futile efforts to chase the raiders down."

Then there will be the groups that do successfully chase down the raiders, send a dispatch boat reporting that they have done so, and then cease to transmit signals ever again.

Indeed.

That devilish thought behind, commerce raiders are not interested in engaging fleet units--their mission is to hit the commercial interests and any engagement with SLN ships cost time and missiles they'd better use on SL frieghters.

For example, I can see my Hypothetical group (Group 7.1.23) with the CA Albertosaurus and RHN CL's Angus McGyver and Michael Stearns hypering in well short of the limit and crawling in an intelligence gold mine something Pat Givens is relishing) is a major shipping node (and has standard traffic patterns that are unlikely to have changed--see Hades for what 'we've always done it this way' is like).

After the first 10-12 freighters get picked off, the Sollies begin to vary movements, but with reconnasiance drones around the system, even inaccurate mini hyper-jumps still can catch some.

Finally a Division of ISLN SD's with a cruiser squadron show up....and the GA folks hyper out of the system to bedevil another location. The SL units are pretty much pinned in place by the panic-stricken natives and even more apoplectic Transtellars.

Make it happen in several hundred locations in a few months, and SL commerce/economy/unity is going to be pretty well shot....IMHO as always.

ETA--Forgot about that small passenger ship hidden in hyper with 300-400 MMM spacers ready to take the Solly ship out of there....

Hutch wrote:

n7axw wrote: Hi Hutch,

Your reasoning seems sound here, but I suspect that due to sheer distance, a substantial portion of the SLN won't have tumbled to what is going on, may not have even heard of Spindle or 2nd Manticore let alone understand the implications. That will make their resonse lethargic and slow to realize how things have changed.

Don

Howdy Don;

You bring up an excellent point. Manticore, despite being hundreds of light years from the Core, actually have the 'inner lines of communication' that military folks have sought for thousands of years. The domination of the wormholes allows for much faster reporting/reaction to events than the Centralized ISLN, where the reports need to go to Sol System and then disseminate outward.

Still, we know that word of New Tuscany is pretty much out to everybody and at least some knowledge of Spindle (wherever the ISLN Command chose to told their commanders) and presumably (given it was several weeks old as of the end of A Rising Thuinder) Second Manticore should at least be known to most of the central Core Worlds.

But the lack of relatively quick communication, combined with the flexibility learned in war by the GA commanders, presents an (IMHO) insurmountable challenge, even to FF or BF commanders that have more than three brain cells to rub together.

We shall see...eventually.


PS--is n7axw your Ham Radio call sign? I'm not a ham, but a good friend of mine is (w1aim).

I was thinking more about those SLN units and squadrons out in the shell or even further out in the Verge policing the protectorates. Some of those poor suckers won't have even a clue for a long time. Their first hint will be when their mail from home stops showing up!

Yep. Been a ham over 35 years now. I'll admit to being proud of it!

Don

Remember the reaction of the manager from the Shadwell Corp. in Mendelschon? Even the people who had heard about New Tuscany and Spindle did not see how it affected them. After all, it was something that happened to someone else somewhere else. It was so far away that it didn't matter. She did not even stop to think that the Manticoran captain she was talking to might have known some of the people who died. Nor did she see a connection between her system and the actions of the SLN until they were pointed out to her. This is probably going to be the standard reaction of the average citizen of the SL.

Lacoon
Just re-read “A rising thunder”for the 3rd or 4th time. I guess its my favorite in the recent series of Sollie skirmishes. Some of the most interesting parts to me are:
1. The conversation betw Manty merchant marine Captn & the Sollie shipping manager.
2. Activation of Lacoon 2
3. Raj ate his gun.
4. Meeting between x,y & z.
Here are some ideas for expanding the Lacoon concept:
Action Goal Intended & unintended consequences.

Lacoon 1 Recall Manty merchant marine from Sollie space
1. convince Sollies that Manties are not gonna roll over.
2. Remove merchant marines from the line of fire.
3. Free up skilled manpower for offensives against Sollies & MalAlign.

Mandarins discover the error of their ways but their belligerence keeps them calling plays from the same “tried and true” playbook for dealing with neo-barbs.

Sollie economy slows, then goes into recession because transportation stalls. “Who can destroy a thing controls it” – quote from Dune

Sollie citizens believe that govt can solve their problems and become more willing to swallow govt propaganda rather than believe their lying eyes or engage their brains.

Lacoon 2 Close key jump points to Solarian shipping. Raise the stakes Negatively impact the Solarian economy to force the Mandarins to take responsibility for their Navy’s actions. Manty’s begin prosecuting war with Sollies.

Sollie trans stellars attempt a coup that fails, solidifying the Mandarins power, but increasing their fear & paranoia. Sollie R&D starts to move forward, intending to close the technology gap.

Lacoon 3 Manty’s submit declaration of War to Chamber of stars.

2. Identify and target Sollie infrastructure, starting with military R&D facilities, like Technodyne.

3. Task commandos (ninjas) to infiltrate and provide covert assistance to revolutionaries in Verge protectorates (ie do what Firebrand pretends to do).

Keep the Mandarins and the Sillies off balance so they take too long to get their act together. Buy enough time for the Solarian Leauge ship to come apart before they can bridge the technology gap wth the Manicore Alliance.

Mandarins engage the theory of “the big lie”.

Sollies start raiding Manty shipping using Frontier fleet. Frontier fleet takes their frustrations out on any Manty ships they catch. Few survive the experience. MalAlign agents help bureaucratic inefficiency to keep Sollie technology in a “not invented here” mindset. This results in R&D stalling out.

Lacoon 4

1. Public relations campaign to discredit the Mandarins policies.
2. Publicize Frontier Fleet’s secret contingency files from their captured computers.
3. Expose corruption in OFS protectorates & client states including Manpower corporate records and client lists.

Create political division and possibly a constitutional crisis Verge systems try to declare independence.

Most Sollie citizens remain brain dead. However, Daud al-Fanudahi’s coalition makes contact with the Beowulf Biological Survey Corps.

Mandarins institute a military conscription program and begins a reign of terror to keep Verge (and core) systems from succeeding.

Lacoon 5 Initiate banking, corporate & infrastructure cyber warfare & espionage. Prosecute the war on multiple fronts, not just militarily. Destabilize the Solly economy. Follow the money trail to the MalAlign. Anarchy reins, people die & things get blown up. Manty’s get a lead on the Verdant Vista (now Torch) wormhole bridge terminus. Manty’s get wind of the Prometheus or Darius plots.

FLHerne wrote:The SLN's total ineffectiveness at missile range is much smaller or even reversed slightly at energy range, so as soon as they get anything sitting right on the termini, the RMN will start needing BCs and wallers to punch through with no real advantage, rather than cruiser divisions with a ridiculous range disparity. It just turns into a war of attrition, and one side has a distinct advantage there.

I won't normally get involved in discussions regarding technology, because frankly, that aspect of the books interest me much less than the social, political and economic aspects. But you mentioned something about missiles I'd like to clarify for myself, so would one of the technojunkies please answer my question.

As far as I understand things, Honorverse missiles ARE energy weapons - at least, they're the platforms that carry the energy weapons to within range of the enemy's ships. Is that right?

So, the range advantage of the Manticorans comes from their ability to launch missiles from a distance far beyond the endurance range of Solarian missiles. In other words, the Solarians' missiles will reach detonation point far short of where the Manticoran ships are, and therefor cannot damage the latter. On the other hand, the Manticoran missiles can travel much farther before reaching their own detonation point. That much I get.

What I don't know is whether the Manticoran energy weapons that are carried aboard their missiles have a significant range advantage, from detonation point, over those of other star nations. Do they? Or is the effective distance at which missile-carried energy weapons can inflict worthwhile damage upon enemy ships more or less the same for everyone?

hanuman wrote:What I don't know is whether the Manticoran energy weapons that are carried aboard their missiles have a significant range advantage, from detonation point, over those of other star nations. Do they? Or is the effective distance at which missile-carried energy weapons can inflict worthwhile damage upon enemy ships more or less the same for everyone?

Most Manticoran laser heads are a bit more powerful than the opposition, especially given their size. The oversized Havenite missiles hit harder in the first war, but the Mk23 is at least as powerful as the big Haven missiles.

Not more range really, just more punch. Standoff range seems to still be about the same. That may not be true, the Andermani were showing a larger standoff range right before the second war (50km vs 30ish km) but that was also against an enemy with little or no EW.

The MK-16G though has improved grav lenses and hits nearly as hard with a cruiser-weight head as a SD-sized first-war Manticoran missile. So not as hard as a Mk-23, but nearly as good as a capital ship missile. That's insanely powerful (and why DD's are punching out BCs...compare the 3rd Yeltsin deathride with one CA vs one BC to the action in the last book where four CL-sized "destroyers" took out four BC's and made it look easy)

Again though..not more standoff range. Just a much larger punch. The effective range has more to do with hitting probabilities vs the massive uncertainty that wedge/sidewall interference causes in determining the location of an enemy ship than the power of the beam.

This is why a SD graser is just as ineffective as a DD laser past 500km against any target with any kind of sidewall. It isn't a matter of punching through, it is a matter of locking onto the target. Lacking a sidewall, grasers can lock on at about twice the distance. This means a bow-wall like the Nasty Kitty had when facing an enemy ship with chasers vs chasers meant the Manticorans were in no danger while their enemy got sliced to bits...the range was close, but not close enough that the other guy could get a lock through a bow wall.

hanuman wrote:

FLHerne wrote:The SLN's total ineffectiveness at missile range is much smaller or even reversed slightly at energy range, so as soon as they get anything sitting right on the termini, the RMN will start needing BCs and wallers to punch through with no real advantage, rather than cruiser divisions with a ridiculous range disparity. It just turns into a war of attrition, and one side has a distinct advantage there.

I won't normally get involved in discussions regarding technology, because frankly, that aspect of the books interest me much less than the social, political and economic aspects. But you mentioned something about missiles I'd like to clarify for myself, so would one of the technojunkies please answer my question.

As far as I understand things, Honorverse missiles ARE energy weapons - at least, they're the platforms that carry the energy weapons to within range of the enemy's ships. Is that right?

Well, sort of. Any device that causes the destruction of something else could loosely be interpreted as an "energy weapon". Even today's Mk-82's, -84's, JDAMS, and whatnot. It's an explosive release of energy.

But that's not what you mean. Yes, a missile in the Honorverse *could* be considered an energy weapon, because it generates an x-ray laser from a nuclear detonation, but to avoid confusion in the Honorverse, an energy weapon is usually just a laser or graser fired from a ship, and can be fired repeatedly.

OTOH, missiles in the honorverse self-destruct in the creation of the laser beam, so they are referred to as missiles, warheads, and laserheads.

hanuman wrote:So, the range advantage of the Manticorans comes from their ability to launch missiles from a distance far beyond the endurance range of Solarian missiles. In other words, the Solarians' missiles will reach detonation point far short of where the Manticoran ships are, and therefor cannot damage the latter. On the other hand, the Manticoran missiles can travel much farther before reaching their own detonation point. That much I get.

Correct, although for the most part, it's not the "detonation point" but the range a missile can get to before it's impeller nodes burn out, at which point, it's just an unguided chunk of metal, easy to avoid if you've been tracking it.

hanuman wrote:What I don't know is whether the Manticoran energy weapons that are carried aboard their missiles have a significant range advantage, from detonation point, over those of other star nations. Do they? Or is the effective distance at which missile-carried energy weapons can inflict worthwhile damage upon enemy ships more or less the same for everyone?

This I'm not too sure about - I just build the models and know the attack sequence, but not the ranges (at least, not off the top of my head). I *think* the laserheads used for the Mk16 and Mk23 (they're both the same model of laserhead) have a max effective range of 50,000km. The laserheads used for the earlier Mk13 has a max effective range of 30,000km (I think). I believe, but could be wrong, that Sollie laserheads are on a par (as far as effective range goes) with the Mk13, whereas Havenite laserheads are probably equal to their Mk16/23 counterparts.

Also, the laserheads used in the Mk16/23 generate a more powerful x-ray laser, due to a higher-yield warhead, and improved grav-focusing to put more x-rays into the lasing material.

Hope this helps.

Edit:

solbergb wrote:

hanuman wrote:What I don't know is whether the Manticoran energy weapons that are carried aboard their missiles have a significant range advantage, from detonation point, over those of other star nations. Do they? Or is the effective distance at which missile-carried energy weapons can inflict worthwhile damage upon enemy ships more or less the same for everyone?

Most Manticoran laser heads are a bit more powerful than the opposition, especially given their size. The oversized Havenite missiles hit harder in the first war, but the Mk23 is at least as powerful as the big Haven missiles.

Not more range really, just more punch. Standoff range seems to still be about the same. That may not be true, the Andermani were showing a larger standoff range right before the second war (50km vs 30ish km) but that was also against an enemy with little or no EW.

First off, I think you might want to change your ranges to "50k km vs 30k km"

Secondly, you might be right as far as ranges. As I said, I don't recall off the top of my head, but I thought there was some targeting improvements that gave RMN DDM/MDM laserheads a bit more effective range.

solbergb wrote:The MK-16G though has improved grav lenses and hits nearly as hard with a cruiser-weight head as a SD-sized first-war Manticoran missile. So not as hard as a Mk-23, but nearly as good as a capital ship missile. That's insanely powerful (and why DD's are punching out BCs...compare the 3rd Yeltsin deathride with one CA vs one BC to the action in the last book where four CL-sized "destroyers" took out four BC's and made it look easy)

Yeah... if a Mk16 had a Mk23-sized warhead, it *would* hit as hard as a Mk23, just with four fewer laserheads.

solbergb wrote:Again though..not more standoff range. Just a much larger punch. The effective range has more to do with hitting probabilities vs the massive uncertainty that wedge/sidewall interference causes in determining the location of an enemy ship than the power of the beam.

This is why a SD graser is just as ineffective as a DD laser past 500km against any target with any kind of sidewall. It isn't a matter of punching through, it is a matter of locking onto the target. Lacking a sidewall, grasers can lock on at about twice the distance. This means a bow-wall like the Nasty Kitty had when facing an enemy ship with chasers vs chasers meant the Manticorans were in no danger while their enemy got sliced to bits...the range was close, but not close enough that the other guy could get a lock through a bow wall.

Again, you might want to change that to "500k km"

But yeah, effective range for laserheads and ship-mounted energy weapons is limited to targeting ability and not range.