Issues due to the size of polities

dreamrider wrote:"Gentlemen,
Democracy is a very bad form of government...
...the problem is, all the others are so much worse."

<grin>

(forgive any paraphrase - I didn't go look it up.)

dreamrider

I think what you are looking for, dreamrider, is this:

Churchill said it (House of Com­mons, 11 Novem­ber 1947)—but he was quot­ing an unknown pre­de­ces­sor. From Churchill by Him­self, page 574:

Many forms of Gov­ern­ment have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pre­tends that democ­racy is per­fect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democ­racy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…

MaxxQ wrote: I once read a story (years and years... decades?... ago) where the leader was selected (by a random selection process in a computer) from a qualified pool of *everyone* (qualified as in no criminal convictions, etc.), and was usually dragged kicking and screaming into the "presidential" office.

Seems about as valid as what we currently have in Real Life™ if a bit more honest.

Two stories spring to my mind, Maxx: One, I think by Asimov, where one voter is interviewed by a supercomputer (Multivac) and his opinions are enough to judge all the elections.

The other was from A.C. Clarke's "Imperial Earth"(IIRC), where I seem to remember that Presidents' were 'dragged into office kicking and screaming' and then worked extra hard at the job so they could get time off for good behavior.

either of those ring a bell?

Hutch wrote:Two stories spring to my mind, Maxx: One, I think by Asimov, where one voter is interviewed by a supercomputer (Multivac) and his opinions are enough to judge all the elections.

The other was from A.C. Clarke's "Imperial Earth"(IIRC), where I seem to remember that Presidents' were 'dragged into office kicking and screaming' and then worked extra hard at the job so they could get time off for good behavior.

either of those ring a bell?

I think Maxx is probably remembering several of Robert A. Heinlein's short stories and/or the Future Histories featuring Lazarus Long -- I don't recall the short story that actually depicted the system in operation, but Heinlein suggested it as the ideal way of selecting a Cheif Executive -- along with the dictum, "No one who wants the job should be allowed to have it."

Also, David Eddings, in the Tamuli series applied the concept to one of the parts of the Tamul Empire; with the added fillip that the victim had to invest all his wordly goods in the government, if the economy prospered under his rule, he got back a profit, if not, he lost his shirt.

Hutch wrote:Two stories spring to my mind, Maxx: One, I think by Asimov, where one voter is interviewed by a supercomputer (Multivac) and his opinions are enough to judge all the elections.

The other was from A.C. Clarke's "Imperial Earth"(IIRC), where I seem to remember that Presidents' were 'dragged into office kicking and screaming' and then worked extra hard at the job so they could get time off for good behavior.

either of those ring a bell?

I recall the Asimov story, but that wasn't the one I was thinking of. OTOH, Imperial Earth might just be the one. It's been awhile since I read it, and aside from the Pentominoes bit, and Argus, I don't remember much.

Weird Harold wrote:I think Maxx is probably remembering several of Robert A. Heinlein's short stories and/or the Future Histories featuring Lazarus Long -- I don't recall the short story that actually depicted the system in operation, but Heinlein suggested it as the ideal way of selecting a Cheif Executive -- along with the dictum, "No one who wants the job should be allowed to have it."

Also, David Eddings, in the Tamuli series applied the concept to one of the parts of the Tamul Empire; with the added fillip that the victim had to invest all his wordly goods in the government, if the economy prospered under his rule, he got back a profit, if not, he lost his shirt.

I've never read any of Heinlein's short stories, nor any of the Lazarus Long stuff.

I've also never read anything from Eddings.

Interesting to see that several different authors have similar takes, though.

Hi KNick,

Do you have textev for Barregos and Rozsak being in Maya that far back?

40-80 years seems a bit long even for prolong.

I was under the impression they were younger than 80.

While both could have seen enough by then to know the SL's days were numbered, how Barregos arranged to be the Maya Sector governor that long ago, besides meeting Rozsak, would be worth at least a short story.

My impression has been that Barregos and Rozsak know each other far better than first meeting in Maya, but how much earlier is still a mystery, so any light shed on it would be greatly appreciated.

L

KNick wrote:A point to consider with respect to the Maya Sector. Adm. Roczak started planning and building toward something like this situation somewhere between 40 and 80 years ago. We have no idea when he originally started thinking about it, but it was somewhere near the start of his career. He saw the cracks in the SL that long ago and realized the implications for the future. Finding Gov. Barregos was simply the icing on the cake.

Hi Hutch, MaxxQ;

The short story reference immediately reminded me of an old Sci-Fi magazine from the 50's, perhaps Amazing or Fantastic etc that I read in the late '60's and early '70's of a reluctant System President elected because he's the best, and the overwhelming job starts to ruin him pretty quickly, is in a day or so, with the lead permanent bureaucrat informing the new system vice-president that he may need to take over soon with his shocked expression on the telescreen being the end of the story.

I don't recall the author, but I think Isaac Asimov may have had a short story in the same issue about a boy who patents faster than light drive using two ships heading toward each other at over half light speed, and is vindicated almost immediately to help his ill father against the corporation that refuses to pay for his patents, with the tag line being the patent lawyer's about Einstein understanding how the boy overturned his theory because he was once a patent clerk.

If that gives anyone a clue, good luck!

L

MaxxQ wrote:

Hutch wrote:Two stories spring to my mind, Maxx: One, I think by Asimov, where one voter is interviewed by a supercomputer (Multivac) and his opinions are enough to judge all the elections.

The other was from A.C. Clarke's "Imperial Earth"(IIRC), where I seem to remember that Presidents' were 'dragged into office kicking and screaming' and then worked extra hard at the job so they could get time off for good behavior.

either of those ring a bell?

I recall the Asimov story, but that wasn't the one I was thinking of. OTOH, Imperial Earth might just be the one. It's been awhile since I read it, and aside from the Pentominoes bit, and Argus, I don't remember much.

Weird Harold wrote:I think Maxx is probably remembering several of Robert A. Heinlein's short stories and/or the Future Histories featuring Lazarus Long -- I don't recall the short story that actually depicted the system in operation, but Heinlein suggested it as the ideal way of selecting a Cheif Executive -- along with the dictum, "No one who wants the job should be allowed to have it."

Also, David Eddings, in the Tamuli series applied the concept to one of the parts of the Tamul Empire; with the added fillip that the victim had to invest all his wordly goods in the government, if the economy prospered under his rule, he got back a profit, if not, he lost his shirt.

I've never read any of Heinlein's short stories, nor any of the Lazarus Long stuff.

I've also never read anything from Eddings.

Interesting to see that several different authors have similar takes, though.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Hutch, MaxxQ;

The short story reference immediately reminded me of an old Sci-Fi magazine from the 50's, perhaps Amazing or Fantastic etc that I read in the late '60's and early '70's of a reluctant System President elected because he's the best, and the overwhelming job starts to ruin him pretty quickly, is in a day or so, with the lead permanent bureaucrat informing the new system vice-president that he may need to take over soon with his shocked expression on the telescreen being the end of the story.

Nope. Never read any of Amazing or Fantastic. Only monthly anthology I ever read was Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. I should have perhaps clarified that I don't think it was the main point of the story, but more something that was mentioned in passing as some background.

lyonheart wrote:Hi KNick,

Do you have textev for Barregos and Rozsak being in Maya that far back?

40-80 years seems a bit long even for prolong.

I was under the impression they were younger than 80.

While both could have seen enough by then to know the SL's days were numbered, how Barregos arranged to be the Maya Sector governor that long ago, besides meeting Rozsak, would be worth at least a short story.

My impression has been that Barregos and Rozsak know each other far better than first meeting in Maya, but how much earlier is still a mystery, so any light shed on it would be greatly appreciated.

L

KNick wrote:A point to consider with respect to the Maya Sector. Adm. Roczak started planning and building toward something like this situation somewhere between 40 and 80 years ago. We have no idea when he originally started thinking about it, but it was somewhere near the start of his career. He saw the cracks in the SL that long ago and realized the implications for the future. Finding Gov. Barregos was simply the icing on the cake.

There is no specific textev for or against them having known each other for a long time. As for the rest it is mostly speculation on my part. However, there are hint in several places.

Time frame: that is based on the length of time it would have taken for an outsider from the Shell to rise to a command position in Battle Fleet. He had to build a support network to help him advance his career. (10 to 20 years?)He then had to actually get promoted to his then current rank of Captain. There are hints that he has been at that rank for about 10 years as of Crown of Slaves. (That is mainly based on the ground action that they discussed early in the book.) He may or may not have met Barregos at some point during his rise. That is unclear. This is all built upon hints and innuendo about how Battle fleet treated "outsiders" attempting to enter "their" world.

Recognition of the problem: Actually, most of the signs of the League's trouble are open to recognition by anyone who is willing to take the time to educate themselves on the history of the rise and fall of governments and is smart enough (which Roszac is) to put the pieces together. We are given examples of his knowledge of history in his dinners with Barregos.

Solution: It is my reading that he was originally looking to set himself up as a warlord after the League collapsed. Not because he wanted the power, but because that was the only way he could see at that time to protect people from what he foresaw happening in the near future. That is why he has built up such a capable cadre of followers. He knew he could not do it by himself.

Maya Sector: For most of the time he has been in the Navy, Roszac has not been anywhere near Maya. His assignment there is fairly recent (within the last decade?). Unless Barregos and Roszac had met earlier, this is a fortuitous occurance for Roszac. With the help of Barregos, he has now found a better way to use his talents and to protect a larger group than he had originally envisioned.

All of this is purely my interpretation of Roszac's actions over the course of his career. But keep in mind his XO. How long has she been with him?

Of course, other people will draw their own conclusions, but as others have said YMMV.

I always thought Rozack was Frontier Fleet, not Battle Fleet. After all, he had actual combat experience (pirates, rebel movements and such).

Vince wrote:I always thought Rozack was Frontier Fleet, not Battle Fleet. After all, he had actual combat experience (pirates, rebel movements and such).

He is now FF, but if I recall correctly, he started in BF. I seem to remember a bit about him being unusual in that he was from a Shell world, but made it into Battle Fleet to start his career. He later transferred to FF to gain combat experience. One of the reasons I was under the impression that he had been thinking about this for a long time.