EOC War aims, goals

Goals and war aims

A couple of months ago not too long after the release of LAMA, there was a forum discussion on whether or not the EOC-Siddarmarkian alliance would invade the temple lands. Opinion was divided on the subject (as usual) and RFC weighed in with the statement that there was no statement of war aims on the part of the alliance to invade the temple lands. Far be it from me to accuse our beloved author of misleading us, but it does seem clear that he did at least indulge in a mild bit of misdirection with his statement. The truth of the matter is that there is no formally stated set of war aims from Charis’ view stated anywhere in the Safehold series.

What that ends up meaning is that if you want to arrive at a conclusion about war aims, it is necessary to sift through the books and come up with incidents and conversations that seem to apply to the subject. I have done that. In a separate post directly following this one, I have included a list and brief summary of what I found. I tried to be as comprehensive as I could, but I assume that I missed sections that could apply just as it is probably true that some of what I marked down might be stretching the point.

Here is my summary. OAR, the objective is for Charis to survive. That is pretty much it, although it is clear that Harahld, Merlin, and Cayleb all understand that if they do survive, that won’t be the end of the challenge. The church will try again. So we can say that the first war aim is stated defensively.

BSRA amid a roll of drums starts off with Archbishop Mikael’s letter to the Temple in which he accuses the Temple of corruption, renounces the temple’s authority and vows that eventually the Church will be rescued from the iron grip of the Temple and those who instigated the war and participated in the corruption will be purged. Mikael is usually the one to speak most clearly and eloquently about this goal. So we can say that in his letter the war aim is offensive. This is the closet we get to a formal declaration of war aims. And certainly it is the most clearly stated and the boldest we get in the entire series. The rest of BSRA tends to be a bit more defensive in tone with Cayleb and company preoccupied with gathering Chisholm, Corisande and Emerald as preparation with the inevitable coming next round of confrontation with the church.

In BHD there isn’t much to chew on for this subject, but in his speech to the Chisholmian parliament, Cayleb reaffirms Mikael’s letter about the ultimate goal being to purge the church of the Group of 4 and the other corrupt vicars in Zion. There also is a conversation between Cayleb and Sharleyan about the need and the difficulty of confronting the church on its own turf. The tone of the war aims implied here is offensive.

In AMF I found only Mikael’s speech in Manchyr Cathedral where he reiterates the goal of reclaiming the church from corruption. “The Church of Charis will come for them..” The goal implied here is obviously offensive.

In HFAF Mikael gives a sermon in Tellesburg Cathedral in the aftermath of Gwylym Manthyr and his crew being tortured and killed in Zion in which he promises that Zhasphar Clytahn himself will be brought to justice. The goal here is offensive.

In MTAT, the strongest statement is in the conversation between Mikael and Irys where he affirms that if Charis wins, the coercive power of the inquisition will be broken.

In LAMA we have Dailydd Mab’s letter to Clytahn. Obviously Mab is one of Merlin’s aliases. It promises retribution to Clyntahn and the inquisition for their crimes. Merlin is obviously steamed, so we should probably be a bit hesitant in claiming this as a war aim, but it is consistant with what is stated elsewhere is very offensively oriented.

This post is too long so I’m going to quit. I’m sure I will chime in again as the discussion progresses.

Don

War aims

OAR- p. 48-49 Nimue’s mission to bring tech to Safehold to enable facing of Gbaba
OAR p.82ff assesment of temple, church, possibility of challenging the church.
BSRA p. 33-35 Staynair’s letter to temple rejection of authority, vow to purge temple of corruption.
BSRA p.91-94- Gray Harbor’s conversation with Sharleyan, Green Mountain about marriage proposal, union of two kingdoms into Empire of Charis. Discussion of prospects of success, victory.
BSRA p. 123-126- Discussion between Merlin and Cayleb about dealing with Nahrman, Hector.
BSRA p.141-142-145- Discussion between Sharleyan and Chilholm’ royal council about Cayleb’s proposal and her decision to accept it. Exchange with Halbrook Hallow.
BSRA p. 161-164. between Narhman and Pine Hallow about Charis’ prospects of success and survival and about Corisande’s and the church’s long term prospects. Nahrman’s decision to surrender to Cayleb.
BSRA p.233 Merlin and Cayleb – church must adjust and adapt to tech to win.
BSRA p. 310-315 between Sharlean and Cayleb. Prospects of surviving, defeating the church
BSRA p. 368-370 between Pine Hallow and Caleb. Pine Hallow accepts Cayleb’s terms on Nahrman’s behalf. Is warned that there is no going back. Choice is between total destruction and victory.
BSRA p.435-437 between Sharleyan and Seahamper. Seahamper worries about what is happening back in Chisholm
BHD p. 70-73 Cayleb’s speech to Chilholmian parliament. Expresses determination to press on to victory over church, to cleanse church of corruption.
BHD. Between Cayleb and Sharleyan- Cayleb’s goal to find a way of getting at temple on its own turf.
AMF p. 465-468-Staynair’s speech in Manchyr cathedral, vows to reclaim church from corrupt men in Zion. “The Church of Charis will come for them.
HFAF p.347-350 Staynair’s sermon in Tellesburg Cathedral in the aftermath of Dohlar surrendering Gwylym Manthyr and his men to inquisition. Announces policy to execute inquisitors on the spot. Vows that one day justice will be executed on Zhaspahr Clytahn himself.
HFAF p. 564 between Cayleb and Merlin. Charis is stronger. Its people ready to pay the price to buy children’s freedom.
MTAT p. 48-50 between Green Valley and Eastshare. They begin planning to move army to the relief of Siddarmark.
MTAT p. 329-331 between Staynair and Irys. Staynair tells Irys, “We won’t simply overthrow the Group of Four. We will also overthrow the cowercive power of the inquisition.” “If the Church of Charis lives, we will change the Church of God Awaiting more profoundly than she has changed sin Creation itself. Irys’ conversion.
LAMA P. 366-367 letter from Dailydd Mab to Zhaspahr Clyntahn. “the day will come when you answer for your crimes and render your account to God.” “We are not Him, but be aware—all of you, from this moment on--- that whatever He may hold in store for your souls, your lives are already forfeit and we will claim them where, as, how, and when we choose.”

n7axw wrote:Goals and war aims

A couple of months ago not too long after the release of LAMA, there was a forum discussion on whether or not the EOC-Siddarmarkian alliance would invade the temple lands. Opinion was divided on the subject (as usual) and RFC weighed in with the statement that there was no statement of war aims on the part of the alliance to invade the temple lands. Far be it from me to accuse our beloved author of misleading us, but it does seem clear that he did at least indulge in a mild bit of misdirection with his statement. The truth of the matter is that there is no formally stated set of war aims from Charis’ view stated anywhere in the Safehold series.

Don

The lack of clearly defined war aims is deliberate, and a continuation of Charis policy.

Consider King Haarahld's pre-war policy of minimizing COGA destructive influence in Charis. It was not a publicly explicit policy, but it was the kingdom policy. Merlin knows a conflict is coming, but hoped it would not happen until the changes that he was supporting would bear results. From Merlin's point of view, technical growth in any nation on Safehold will force change on the rest of Safehold.

When Charis was attacked, a state of war existed between Charis and Chisholm, Emerald, Corisande, Tarot, and Dohlar. The kingdom still had temple loyalists, and a declaration of war on the COGA would have been divisive. Even loyalists could support a war against nations that had attacked the kingdom. Charis at this point prosecutes a war against those five nations. While Charis is explicit in stating who is behind the attack, Charis does not declare a war on the COGA or the temple lands.

If the COGA had not escalated the war with the attack on Charis' mariners, the torture of Charis' sailors, Operation Rakurai, or the Sword of Schueler, then it is possible, and probable that the Empire of Charis would have limited the war to the initial five nations that attacked Charis. Remember the EOC does not have to defeat the COGA or the temple lands. The EOC remaining independent and economically growing will undermine the COGA. As it is, attacks by Desnair, Harchong,and the Temple Lands justify any military response that the EOC believe can be supported.

wow congrats for the research!

I'm not sure that the conflict was ever containable once it started. Three things to consider here. Harahld knew his kingdom was marked before Merlin showed up. Religious issues aside, his kingdom was too successful and had become too powerful. On that basis alone the kingdom had become a threat from the perspective of the church.

The next thing is that the social changes in Charis and to a lesser extent Chisholm threatened the stasis upon which the church depended.

Finally, Charis knew the hand that attacked her well before battle was joined. OAR makes that clear. The nations whose navies were involved in the attack were simply cat's paws. Mikael's letter declaring independence from the church is red meat for the group of 4. While there is no formal declaration of war in the normal sense, that letter should be understood as such since the open challenge to the church's authority makes any response other than escalation inconveivable.

Don

Excellent research and points.

That said, I would add one item which you may have missed. Sorry, don't have the exact reference, but when the new, all iron, warships were being described, and their names announced, Caleb mentioned them sailing into Zion itself. That does imply at least some movement into the Temple lands.

My view, is that even if they did move in, it would not be for conquest, but to create self governing lands. Sure, they have added a lot of kingdoms into the Empire, but each has maintained a level of self rule. Nor do I think they would want any permanent territories on the mainland.

Very nice, Don.

As I read your collection, it boils down to the following aims.

1- Defend against CoGA aggression directed by the Group of Four and CoGA assertion of authority over the Church of Charis.

2- Force the CoGA to reform and address their corruption.

3- Hold personally responsible the individual CoGA leadership for the results of CoGA corruption and the harm done by their military aggression.

There might well be more nice to haves but nothing in text that reads must have.

I am beginning to suspect that the chestfull of evidence will be used to target corrupt CoGA leadership members and prove their corruption. As for what reform actually means, that might be subject to negotiation.

The Inner Circle might does have other goals in addition to the EoC's stated goals.

1-Destroy the OBS
2-Invalidate the Proscription's moral authority.

Again, there are other like to haves but these are essentials. Everything else is possible if the OBS is destroyed and the Proscription is no longer a moral imperative. The Writ or whatever portions of it remain acceptable after the moral foundations for the Proscriptions are invalidated can be worked with.

If the post Clyntahn CoGA agree to those three terms above, can the EoC reject that base for a truce?

PeterZ wrote:Very nice, Don.

As I read your collection, it boils down to the following aims.

1- Defend against CoGA aggression directed by the Group of Four and CoGA assertion of authority over the Church of Charis.

2- Force the CoGA to reform and address their corruption.

3- Hold personally responsible the individual CoGA leadership for the results of CoGA corruption and the harm done by their military aggression.

There might well be more nice to haves but nothing in text that reads must have.

I am beginning to suspect that the chestfull of evidence will be used to target corrupt CoGA leadership members and prove their corruption. As for what reform actually means, that might be subject to negotiation.

The Inner Circle might does have other goals in addition to the EoC's stated goals.

1-Destroy the OBS
2-Invalidate the Proscription's moral authority.

Again, there are other like to haves but these are essentials. Everything else is possible if the OBS is destroyed and the Proscription is no longer a moral imperative. The Writ or whatever portions of it remain acceptable after the moral foundations for the Proscriptions are invalidated can be worked with.

If the post Clyntahn CoGA agree to those three terms above, can the EoC reject that base for a truce?

It is hard for me to see any alternative to surrender of the Group of 4 and the vicars supporting them in the Temple. I know that is cw on forum to assume that Duchairn is conspiring and I have come to agree with that. But what needs to be added is that he has at least as much chance of getting killed as he does suceeding in overthrowing Clyntahn. And Clyntahn will ride the situation down in flames rather than give in.

Then assuming a truly penitant Duchairn which I am willing to grant, what internal constraints is he going to be under? One of the reasons Clyntahn remains in power is that he has the support of his underlings in the inquisition. Duchairn's grip on power if he suceeds in overthrowing will be weak at best. More than likely he will be murdered in turn by a nasty group of inquisitors who will put one of their own in power.

That whole bunch reminds me of Hitler, Goebbels and Nazi SS. One can argue legal niceties all you like. The only reason their level of violence doesn't rise to the level of the Nazis is that their tools for inflictng damage are more limited.

I don't see these people being willing to negotiate their way to the headsman or hangman's noose which is precisely what must happen for justice to be served. You don't negotiate with such people. You round them up, give them fair trials and then exact the penalty. What I didn't find in looking through the books was any statment of war aims by Siddarmark or its protector. But I would be utterly shocked if after what his people have been through, that Greghor Stohner would be willing to settle for less than what I have outlined above.

Don

I don't think all the vicar's deserve execution. With the boxful of evidence, there is clear proof to convict many Vicars under their own laws. I suspect enough to swing the vicarage against Clyntahn. Will the Allies stop after getting Clyntahn's head if Duchairn and Magwair agree to their stated terms? They just might if keeping those two means they give the Temple Loyalists face saving gesture and the Allies get their cold war.

I see them definitly ensuring that the imperium is the ruler of the oceans of safe hold. with only the merchant marine o the imperium and her allies let. even if they cant dock in ports, they will use near by islands, then arrange for smugglers to purchase their goods then take them to mainland ports.
if there is no navy able to fight them, and no port able to safely build oppsition, then they win. the church is forced to deal with the fact the heretic empire is not protected by military action. and avle to do untold damage to the port cities of the main land. Say the navy of god is gone, then the republic able to secure their wins. charis can force the church to surrender by demolitioning evey enemy mainland port it can reach.