Just how big is the RHN?

Hi guys and gals,

While I doubt we often trouble RFC with the real weaknesses of the honorverse as he sees them, which is all to the good as far as I'm concerned, sometimes we overlook too many neat opportunities.

I've suggested before that designing some of Shannon's new classes could occupy us for quite some time before the desperate need for snippets became overwhelming, but nothing ever happens.

OTOH, there should be not much debate on the size of the RHN, given 2&1/2 T-years of war.

While the 1920 Fleet strength chart is often cited by me and others, we should keep a few things in mind.

1. The RoH is a democratic republic, and as Machiavelli warned "republics rarely start wars, but they often finish them"

The resource commitment republics can assemble for war can be huge, and the RoH is the second largest human polity in the honorverse, even if it half or less what it used to be.

RFC has mentioned the restored RoH has some 35 first rate industrialized systems with another 35 at least breakeven.

Back in AAC, you all probably recall a conversation I'll roughly paraphrase when Arnold Giancola asks his brother rhetorically "what doesn't involve the navy these days?", and Jason responds "not much" to indicate the resources the republic had marshalled less than year into the second war.

Later we have textev that whole systems have been dedicated to producing LAC's with implication that others are producing single classes of various other ships besides the SD's and CLAC's that Bolthole and Haven and its 2-3 largest colonies are, such as BC's, CA's, CL's and DD's.

So, if the RoH may have reduced the SEM's construction advantage in time down to around 50%, then RHN DD's might take 23-30 weeks for DD's depending on the size relative to Roland's, and 30-38 for CL's; while Mars class or bigger heavy cruisers [473-600KT] could easily take 40-50 weeks, and BC's ~75-80 despite their smaller size compared to BCP's and BCL's.

That suggests the same slip or construction shipyard could have built 5-6 small DD's since the second war began, with those dedicated to light cruisers 4, heavy cruisers 3, and just 2 for the BC yard's.

How many building slips and or shipyards should we assume for each such system?

If only a couple systems were devoted to each class with 80 in each for eight actual squadrons per cycle, the number of new DD's might number 800-960.

The number of light cruisers might reach 640, heavy cruisers 480, and 320 BC's; for 2240-2400 new escorts for the GA, besides the hundreds of SDP's and CLAC's built since the war began for an extra 3000 above the ~1300 in the 1920 chart less losses, for something around 5000 hyper warships all by itself.

I suspect its less than that, but I'm just preparing you in case RFC does use such large numbers, it's possible.

Granted how could the broke republic pay for all that is answered by the war mobilization, while the ~1.9 million crew members needed might conflict with almost 300 SDP's if they weren't coming from the obsolete SD's, NTM that out of a population of some 3-400B or about 100 times Manticore system's population, the RoH ought to be able to find the crews.

Your insights will be appreciated.

L

We have been thinking along similar lines.

Before we add up the number of new RHN units, I thought adding up the number of units Manticore and Grayson built using HoS numbers along with reposting the exact built times RFC has posted might be a very good place to start. Otherwise you are assuming people know those numbers off the top of their heads.

But: I gotta go to bed.

Please modify your first post in light of the above and then we can really get down to brass tacs.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/106/1

Also got to remember that the RHN wasn't building anything until the Civil war was finished. What they were building, developing, were MDM/SDP/CLAC/LAC tech. Due to civil war one has to adjust the numbers far downward regarding applied R&D and build numbers I would think. Reason I bring this up, is that Manticore during this interwar period were building light units. Lots of them. How many of those posted in HoS were built during this interwar period? We can surmise fairly accurately to obtain an alliance baseline and then try to "apply" to the Republic of Haven. After all Haven was stated to "probably" have around 1200 SDP being built. I think that 1200 number included their projected CLAC's. Especially in light of Solon where 10k LAC's were being built and ready for distribution and the umpteen thousands of LAC's seen elsewhere.

Do note that RFC/Bu9 never stated how many LAC's were built in HoS.

For instance: Fleet Strength 1920 only has 3 SAG-C on the books, but in HoS, 149 had been built. 146! True some of their old CA's went to Zanzibar and Alizon, but, still as of 1920 had 115 in service. Had 120 SAG-A and SAG-B built. Though according to HoS, the 74 Star Knight CA's are not retired yet either and yet we have 115 in the OOB for 1920. Gave a few away. A whole bunch more were destroyed in battle. Either case all we really care about is total built. Enjoy other nuggets like this one.

Another thing: It should be noted that while 200+ CL's were built per HoS, during this period, the number of DD's built after the end of the first Haven war is practically 0. A handful of wolfhound and Rolland ships in comparison. OOB 1920 still has 400 DD listed. Clearly all of these DD's are doing commerce pro and did not get axed much during the first war.

Manticore has always had more need for light units. Yes, they have built approx 200 SDP, Haven was in the process of building 1200. Somehow I doubt they have built comparative modern light unit totals. They did not have the need. They did have the need for the SDP. It would appear that both sides quit building but a handful of BC's and the only reason Manticore has any at all is because of the BCP. I still figure Manticore has more BC's than Haven due to this consideration. Haven will have quite a few CALs.

Lyon: I think your numbers are WAAAAYYYYYYYY too high by several country miles. Especially the light units. In AAC for Haven we pretty much only saw, SD/CLAC/LAC. Now subtract another 75 from BOMA from 1920 OOB and well they could be laying more light units down around BOMA, as honestly their numbers of light units seems fairly small. According to 1920 chart, they have more SD/SDP than they do, BC/CA/CL/DD!

lyonheart wrote:Later we have textev that whole systems have been dedicated to producing LAC's with implication that others are producing single classes of various other ships

Flawed assumption unfortunately. LACs are small enough that specialising in building such can be done by a system without requiring the investment needed for fullscale ships. And they don´t use all the same components as fullsize ships.

For larger ships, they already need "everything" and the slips needed seem to have a fair bit of leeway, so more likely, there are no systems specialised for a single class or size of ships.

In fact, it would be risky to do so, as you probably wouldn´t be building them in more than one or two systems, meaning that the Manties could have identified a handful of systems to destroy all/most of Havens production of ships from LACs to SDs in size.

lyonheart wrote:The RoH is a democratic republic, and as Machiavelli warned "republics rarely start wars, but they often finish them"

I believe that has been pretty well proven wrong. And please don´t make me state the obvious example of it.

lyonheart wrote:How many building slips and or shipyards should we assume for each such system?

If only a couple systems were devoted to each class with 80 in each for eight actual squadrons per cycle, the number of new DD's might number 800-960.

The number of light cruisers might reach 640, heavy cruisers 480, and 320 BC's; for 2240-2400 new escorts for the GA, besides the hundreds of SDP's and CLAC's built since the war began for an extra 3000 above the ~1300 in the 1920 chart less losses, for something around 5000 hyper warships all by itself.

I suspect its less than that, but I'm just preparing you in case RFC does use such large numbers, it's possible.

Even if the ships are more likely produced in nonspecialised systems, those numbers are not at all entirely unthinkable. But they are probably still far too high.

Haven is a HUGE entity, just as you said, and the need for small ships is likely quite noticeable even if Haven doesn´t have the kind of trade stretched into "unruly" areas like Manticore.

If they can whip up several hundreds of SDs, it´s quite possible that they could likewise whip up thousands of light ships.

This:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/106/1
shows them as having what i would have to say is not enough light units, and if they think the same, they would work to fix that eventually.

Having fewer DD or CL than SD AND SDP both individually is definitely a fleet slanted too much towards heavy units. Almost fewer DD+CL than either SD or SDP even(and almost half of those in reserve!).

Also, Haven seemed to focus a lot on building SDPs.

lyonheart wrote:NTM that out of a population of some 3-400B or about 100 times Manticore system's population, the RoH ought to be able to find the crews.

Oh, THAT shouldn´t too much of an issue.

Haven have already long since adjusted to masstraining crew from the general, on average rather undereducated, population, and even if the average quality of the crew isn´t great, getting enough people for smaller ships when they can manage it for the larger ones, probably plenty plausible.



##########

wastedfly wrote:Also got to remember that the RHN wasn't building anything until the Civil war was finished.

Are you sure of this? Why would they completely stop building anything?

Also got to remember that the RHN wasn't building anything until the Civil war was finished. What they were building, developing, were MDM/SDP/CLAC/LAC tech.

Captain Bachfish's second misadventure in Silesia was started because he noticed 2 new, modern RHN destroyers.

wastedfly wrote:Another thing: It should be noted that while 200+ CL's were built per HoS, during this period, the number of DD's built after the end of the first Haven war is practically 0. A handful of wolfhound and Rolland ships in comparison. OOB 1920 still has 400 DD listed. Clearly all of these DD's are doing commerce pro and did not get axed much during the first war.

Manticore has always had more need for light units. Yes, they have built approx 200 SDP, Haven was in the process of building 1200. Somehow I doubt they have built comparative modern light unit totals. They did not have the need. They did have the need for the SDP. It would appear that both sides quit building but a handful of BC's and the only reason Manticore has any at all is because of the BCP. I still figure Manticore has more BC's than Haven due to this consideration. Haven will have quite a few CALs.

I'm not going to try to weigh in on the numbers built, I'm wondering if they ever managed to get tech to close the gap Manticore has is light unit capabilities.

The newest classes Manticore has produced Roland, Wolfhound, Avalon, Sag-B, Sag-C, BC(P), and BC(L) all have extended range or dual-drive missiles. Given them a big offensive reach advantage over anything older.

We had no real indication that Haven had cracked ERM tech during the ceasefire, but they might have gotten it from Erewhon. If they did that could have driven a round of BC or CA construction to get that (larger) missile out into the fleet. But if they didn't then there's even less incentive to build more units that aren't capable of standing up against their counterparts, and can't raid in the face of LACs and system defense pods. Yes they can contributed to fleet screening, but so can Havenite LACs, which are much cheaper.

I know their MDMs were bigger than even the original Manticoran capacitor driven ones; but they might have build a BC(P) design around them (or a hypothetical dual drive; capacitor powered variant). We've seen no evidence of a BC(P), but again a new design to redress the range advanatage might have driven a building spree.


But if they weren't able to make substantial improvements in the smaller ships I'd guess they focused most of their effort (budget, resources, and personnel) on building up main fleet; SD(P)s, CLACs, and shoals of LACs. (Especially as their system defense stance was also switching to pods, Moriarty, and LACs. So between that, and their relative lack of merchant traffic beyond their boarders, they may not need all that many lighter units anymore)

Each Haven system could be as productive as Grayson.

Cost on a world makes no difference as the money is an artificial token system. If you make things yourself they don't have a cost for a system. Inter system trade has a cost, but within Haven itself it is a print more money system. Really cost doesn't limit you, time / resources is the only limit.

Each of the 300 Haven systems could make 150 SD(P), 5,000 LAC with associated CLAC, 300 smaller craft. Millions of missiles.

In 20 years Haven could have 45,000 SD(P), 1.5 million LAC, 90,000 others.

Plus billions of missiles.

Potato wrote:

Also got to remember that the RHN wasn't building anything until the Civil war was finished. What they were building, developing, were MDM/SDP/CLAC/LAC tech.

Captain Bachfish's second misadventure in Silesia was started because he noticed 2 new, modern RHN destroyers.

Sure, there are going to be a few handful of light units being built, but vast numbers? No. It is a very large navy after all.

Look at the 1920 chart. RHN has 40 CAL in reserve. These are fairly modern units and yet they are already in the reserve...??? This tells me they do not have any new viable small combatant in the inter war period. Also tells me they do not have the need for larger numbers of light combatants. Putting modern units into the reserve? That never happens. Now after 1920, with the addition of info from Erewhon, they could be building or upgrading existing ships to use a new ERM.

Haven does not have a very larger merchant marine. They do not need lots of destroyers or light cruisers. The traditional Destroyer/Light Cruiser roll has for all intensive purposes vanished for the RHN. LAC's in the fleet defense roll have completely superseded the destroyer and light cruiser. BoMa RHN had SDP/CLAC/LAC and a few BC/CA as their screen. They had 0 Cl/DD that were there in the screening roll. Might have had a couple as scouts that we never saw. So, modern RHN doctrine uses DD/CL as scout elements only. System Defense is taken over by LAC's/RD's/Pods and a handful of BC's as seen in the cutworm raids. This is true for both navies. Due to MDM they also see BC's as a dying and dead class.

So, RHN sees, BC's as dead, has CA(Large) in reserve(not being used), has a few CL's and the DD role as a fleet unit has vanished with the introduction of a modern LAC/CLAC. How many hyper capable scouts does the RHN need? They could project a larger merchant marine with an uptick in their economy, so we could see pressure applied from this angle, but from the Naval side? Hardly any use for this "obsolete" unit type. How many RHN LAC's were destroyed in the Cutworm raids along with BoMa? 15,000-20,000. Let that GIGANTIC number settle into our minds for a moment. 15-20,000! So, no, I do not see many RHN light units being built other than to fulfill the role as hyper scout.

Look at what the RMN has built! Essentially 0 DD's even with their very large merchant marine. Their 400 old style DD's in commission, will wear out eventually. What will replace them? What seems apparent as the replacement seems to be CL's with their ERM. It also seems apparent that the RMN sees DD/ERM as a fairly useless combo. They built all of 19, Wolfhound class, yet 200 Avalon CL class instead.

So, Even the Manties see DD's as dead even with an ERM/LERM missile. RHN until 1920 certainly did not have an ERM/LERM. They really see DD's as dead.

Manties see CL's as a very useful class. Is their commerce protection unit of choice going forward. RHN has very little commerce to protect in comparison. Will they have some? Sure. Not many. Still need long range scouts.

RHN uses their CA's as raiding units and yet they have CA(L) in reserve so they do not see some gigantic pressing need for such units either. Resumption of war would probably have them building more, but hundreds? Highly doubtful. Same goes for BC's. A few handfuls of force projection units and commerce raiding units.

Ok, next post will deal with RHN new tech, instead of rehashing old tech. What does an ERM/LERM missile mean to RHN after 1920 via Erewhon? Build numbers increase?

Hi WastedFly,

Is this a case of 'great minds' or what?

The 1920 Fleet strength Chart is about ten years young, ie almost ten years after TSVW, and before EF's FtH fully took effect on RFC's creation.

The number of light units has generally been considered a weak point by fans as you noted, particularly for the IAN [with which RFC agreed during a book signing conversation at HonorCon last fall] and the RHN given how many systems they have to provide convoys for without getting into the RMN's low escort numbers if the 1904 numbers were too few for convoy duty in Silesia etc.

Back at the bar in the summer of 2006, as part of an attempt to explain why the peeps had far too few escorts for a 100-150 systems [not knowing then it was ~270-300+] in the face of all the surviving avenging orphan warships [not so much privateers as commerce destroyers], I suggested it was because all old peep escorts were given to the ministry of the interior or commerce for internal convoy duties [potentially making up the hundreds I then thought needed], but RFC or the MWW as he was then rather testily replied that not many were needed for convoy escort because most systems didn't need imports or exports(!)

While technically true, and granting the peeps were poor, given how much important trade is in the honorverse, it must have been the wrong time of day to catch RFC's attention.

I later suggested the low rate of internal convoys [bi-monthly or quarterly or less] might have so reduced internal commerce that it was a major contributing factor to the peep's poor economy, without triggering a similar storm, IIRC.

That's just to provide some background on where I've suggested numbers should be in the past.

Trying to use the 1920 chart and the HoS only demonstrates more conflicts besides those with the SVW appendix [such as 333 CA's averaging 276KT], quite aside from the idea that the RMN stopped all escort production during the early part of the war at least as some have implied, but I believe we agreed to leave that thread molder on.

The 1200 SDP figure was given early in AAC by Patricia Givens and fairly firm; 800 at Bolthole with the last that should have completed by February, while the other 400 being built at Haven and 2-3 nearby colonies should be finished this winter if not sooner given the spur of the war's exigencies.

Given how much simpler CLAC's are, it's not surprising there are hundreds on both sides of the GA, whether or not whole systems are dedicated to their construction in the RoH.

My impression of Janacek's building escorts in WroH was that they were actually very few, yet while I'm excited by the HoS numbers, the huge numbers implied from the OB losses can explain most of the increases as war production.

The idea the RMN lost so few DD's in a ten year war given the loss rate we do know about at the beginning of the war etc should be ludicrous, and only reinforces the notion replacements were built throughout the first war in the slips that were too small for anything else, indicating a net loss not the war total.

All RHN CA's are CAL's, whether its the 600KT of the early textev, or the 473KT of SoS, and I'm very surprised that no one's interested in what Shannon has come up with since she took charge of RHN R&D despite how often I've suggested it.

I've pointed out before that the RHN had the tendency to send an SDP or two where the RMN might have sent a squadron of BC's etc because that's what the RHN had in lieu of something more appropriate, nonetheless the potential for such RHN numbers is there.

L

wastedfly wrote:We have been thinking along similar lines.

Before we add up the number of new RHN units, I thought adding up the number of units Manticore and Grayson built using HoS numbers along with reposting the exact built times RFC has posted might be a very good place to start. Otherwise you are assuming people know those numbers off the top of their heads.

But: I gotta go to bed.

Please modify your first post in light of the above and then we can really get down to brass tacs.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/106/1

Also got to remember that the RHN wasn't building anything until the Civil war was finished. What they were building, developing, were MDM/SDP/CLAC/LAC tech. Due to civil war one has to adjust the numbers far downward regarding applied R&D and build numbers I would think. Reason I bring this up, is that Manticore during this interwar period were building light units. Lots of them. How many of those posted in HoS were built during this interwar period? We can surmise fairly accurately to obtain an alliance baseline and then try to "apply" to the Republic of Haven. After all Haven was stated to "probably" have around 1200 SDP being built. I think that 1200 number included their projected CLAC's. Especially in light of Solon where 10k LAC's were being built and ready for distribution and the umpteen thousands of LAC's seen elsewhere.

Do note that RFC/Bu9 never stated how many LAC's were built in HoS.

For instance: Fleet Strength 1920 only has 3 SAG-C on the books, but in HoS, 149 had been built. 146! True some of their old CA's went to Zanzibar and Alizon, but, still as of 1920 had 115 in service. Had 120 SAG-A and SAG-B built. Though according to HoS, the 74 Star Knight CA's are not retired yet either and yet we have 115 in the OOB for 1920. Gave a few away. A whole bunch more were destroyed in battle. Either case all we really care about is total built. Enjoy other nuggets like this one.

Another thing: It should be noted that while 200+ CL's were built per HoS, during this period, the number of DD's built after the end of the first Haven war is practically 0. A handful of wolfhound and Rolland ships in comparison. OOB 1920 still has 400 DD listed. Clearly all of these DD's are doing commerce pro and did not get axed much during the first war.

Manticore has always had more need for light units. Yes, they have built approx 200 SDP, Haven was in the process of building 1200. Somehow I doubt they have built comparative modern light unit totals. They did not have the need. They did have the need for the SDP. It would appear that both sides quit building but a handful of BC's and the only reason Manticore has any at all is because of the BCP. I still figure Manticore has more BC's than Haven due to this consideration. Haven will have quite a few CALs.

Lyon: I think your numbers are WAAAAYYYYYYYY too high by several country miles. Especially the light units. In AAC for Haven we pretty much only saw, SD/CLAC/LAC. Now subtract another 75 from BOMA from 1920 OOB and well they could be laying more light units down around BOMA, as honestly their numbers of light units seems fairly small. According to 1920 chart, they have more SD/SDP than they do, BC/CA/CL/DD!

lyonheart wrote:
All RHN CA's are CAL's, whether its the 600KT of the early textev, or the 473KT of SoS, and I'm very surprised that no one's interested in what Shannon has come up with since she took charge of RHN R&D despite how often I've suggested it.

L

Because everything in modern warfare is tied directly to missiles and its tech tree.

Shannon had been pressing BIG time on creating a useable MDM/LAC/CLAC/SDP. In WoH it mentions how just doing this has been near impossible. I also believe, even mentions may one day get around to looking at lighter units but simply do not have the time or inclination to do so due to the preponderonce of need in MDM/SDP/CLAC/LAC development.

Erewhon joins and gives them access to super caps, but in ToF, we know that Erewhon isn't exactly bending over backwards to help Haven. It was noted that their LERM missile tech was still far better than Haven's. So, on the missile tech front it would seem to indicate, even in 1921 that Haven is far behind Erewhon, let along Manticore regarding a new light unit missile.

Lets work through the logic tree.

RHN, (SHANNON FORAKER) is buried in MDM/CLAC/LAC/SDP up till, past, and through the begining of the second Havenite war and into it.

RHN gets a windfall of tech from Erewhon.

About this time RHN also finds out that Manticore is going to all DDM equipped light units. SAG-C, Roland, BCL. They already know about ERM missiles from the interwar period.

So, not only can RHN light units not compete against ERM missile equipped ships, they do not have a chance in Hell against RMN DDM equipped ships.

In short, while RHN R&D is working overtime on the missile tech gigantic hole they are working from, they still do not have a viable technology platform to apply to a hull form.

Therefore: RHN has not built large numbers of new light units. They have no viable missile tech to place into said hulls and therefore did not build many as they would be spit on a griddle against their RMN betters.

Could we see some giant RHN DDM BCP? Uh, ok.

lyonheart wrote:The number of light units has generally been considered a weak point by fans as you noted, particularly for the IAN [with which RFC agreed during a book signing conversation at HonorCon last fall] and the RHN given how many systems they have to provide convoys for without getting into the RMN's low escort numbers if the 1904 numbers were too few for convoy duty in Silesia etc.

Back at the bar in the summer of 2006, as part of an attempt to explain why the peeps had far too few escorts for a 100-150 systems [not knowing then it was ~270-300+] in the face of all the surviving avenging orphan warships [not so much privateers as commerce destroyers], I suggested it was because all old peep escorts were given to the ministry of the interior or commerce for internal convoy duties [potentially making up the hundreds I then thought needed], but RFC or the MWW as he was then rather testily replied that not many were needed for convoy escort because most systems didn't need imports or exports(!)

While technically true, and granting the peeps were poor, given how much important trade is in the honorverse, it must have been the wrong time of day to catch RFC's attention.

I later suggested the low rate of internal convoys [bi-monthly or quarterly or less] might have so reduced internal commerce that it was a major contributing factor to the peep's poor economy, without triggering a similar storm, IIRC.

That's just to provide some background on where I've suggested numbers should be in the past.

And since then RFC has dropped some pearls that say convoying is primarily needed when the remote system isn't necessarily secure, or lacks the resources to patrol its own hyperlimit. The convoy is primarily to protect the merchantmen when they reenter n-space.

That's why, apparently, Manticore needs less ship convoying merchies in Silesia now that they own it can can secure each system instead of trying to provide ad-hoc protection when and where they could without making the Andie's too nervous.

Now military convoys going anywhere near the front are escorted (like the one Honor was protecting in IEH) because the ebb and flow of battle means that you might lose control of a system suddenly and you can trust the convoy to get word before they arrive; so they have to bring their own scouts and protection along.


But, for example, merchants moving between Manticore and Grayson shouldn't need to move in convoy because it is very very hard to intercept the ships (even moving independently) in hyper and the systems on each end are secure.


If Haven follows the same philosophy, and most of their trade is internal (or direct transits to the League), then they should only need enough escorts for military convoys moving to systems near the front. That would cut down the number of total light units they'd need.