Portable twelve pounders as a bodyguard?

I was re-reading the scene where Merlin demos his new pistols for Cayleb and Protector Stohnar and was struck by how his pistols seemed to have overpenetration issues. If the rounds could go through a double breastplate and splinter wood behind it, I wonder if that constitutes an unacceptable risk of over penetrating when used in close quarters, especially if the bullet doesnt strike bone. I suppose it's possible the combination of large caliber and snub nose would mitigate against it but I wonder.

I was also rereading ( cant recall which novel), during the Corisande campaign, how the specialty sniper rifles could manage head shots at 500 yards. Assuming a head would be a 6x6 target, that's 1/2 Minute of Angle accuracy which I is pushing the limit of a modern day design. True, the specialized Charisian models have supremely long barrels, but 1/2 MOA seems a bit beyond what I'd expect would be possible.

So far Google hasnt turned up much of help on either question so I thought I'd throw it out for discussion. RFC is a lifelong shooter and is known for researching little details such as these, and I suspect there may be barflies who can contribute

ericth wrote:I was re-reading the scene where Merlin demos his new pistols for Cayleb and Protector Stohnar and was struck by how his pistols seemed to have overpenetration issues. If the rounds could go through a double breastplate and splinter wood behind it, I wonder if that constitutes an unacceptable risk of over penetrating when used in close quarters, especially if the bullet doesnt strike bone. I suppose it's possible the combination of large caliber and snub nose would mitigate against it but I wonder.

I suspect that Merlin was more interested in penetration than in over-penetration. As a bodyguard, he should be more concerned with penetrating any armor potential assassins might be wearing instead of worrying about missing his target.

Also, at the time, most of his bodyguarding would have been in a stone building, where over-penetration of walls wouldn't be a concern and over-penetration of the target wouldn't be of concern to a PICA who could pick and choose the angle of shot to avoid collateral damage.

ericth wrote:I was also rereading ( cant recall which novel), during the Corisande campaign, how the specialty sniper rifles could manage head shots at 500 yards. Assuming a head would be a 6x6 target, that's 1/2 Minute of Angle accuracy which I is pushing the limit of a modern day design.

At that kind of range, the accuracy of the shooter and the accuracy of the bullet is more important than the accuracy of the rifle.

Also, I expect 1/2 MOA accuracy out of my off the shelf Remmington 700 ADL. My personal ability can't make use of that level of accuracy beyond about 200 yards, but the rifle can in the hands of a better shot than I.

The military version of the same rifle is "accurized" to reduce that to around 1/4 MOA when used with hand-loaded rounds to maximize consistency and accuracy. Getting much more accuracy is possible under laboratory conditions, but wind and other environmental factors make such refinements overkill; Hence, "the shooter, not the gun."

ericth wrote:I was re-reading the scene where Merlin demos his new pistols for Cayleb and Protector Stohnar and was struck by how his pistols seemed to have overpenetration issues. If the rounds could go through a double breastplate and splinter wood behind it, I wonder if that constitutes an unacceptable risk of over penetrating when used in close quarters, especially if the bullet doesnt strike bone. I suppose it's possible the combination of large caliber and snub nose would mitigate against it but I wonder.

I was also rereading ( cant recall which novel), during the Corisande campaign, how the specialty sniper rifles could manage head shots at 500 yards. Assuming a head would be a 6x6 target, that's 1/2 Minute of Angle accuracy which I is pushing the limit of a modern day design. True, the specialized Charisian models have supremely long barrels, but 1/2 MOA seems a bit beyond what I'd expect would be possible.

So far Google hasnt turned up much of help on either question so I thought I'd throw it out for discussion. RFC is a lifelong shooter and is known for researching little details such as these, and I suspect there may be barflies who can contribute

The assumption here is that these were produced by any Charisian foundry. OWL has gunsmithed a number of Merlin's hand weapons so a piece of precision machinery that just happens to look like a variant of Charisian manufacture has been standard practice for years. It helps that it is being fired from the equivalent of mechanical bench rest.
Precision alignment of chamber and barrel are critical for accuracy as is minimizing the gap between cylinder and barrel rifling so the bullet is positively guided until it leaves the barrel (most (even current production)revolvers do a poor job of both, which is why customized automatics (1911 Colts etc) and bolt action pistols are preferred for serious target work).

Weird Harold wrote:...

I suspect that Merlin was more interested in penetration than in over-penetration. As a bodyguard, he should be more concerned with penetrating any armor potential assassins might be wearing instead of worrying about missing his target.

Also, at the time, most of his bodyguarding would have been in a stone building, where over-penetration of walls wouldn't be a concern and over-penetration of the target wouldn't be of concern to a PICA who could pick and choose the angle of shot to avoid collateral damage.

ericth wrote:I was also rereading ( cant recall which novel), during the Corisande campaign, how the specialty sniper rifles could manage head shots at 500 yards. Assuming a head would be a 6x6 target, that's 1/2 Minute of Angle accuracy which I is pushing the limit of a modern day design.

At that kind of range, the accuracy of the shooter and the accuracy of the bullet is more important than the accuracy of the rifle.

Also, I expect 1/2 MOA accuracy out of my off the shelf Remmington 700 ADL. My personal ability can't make use of that level of accuracy beyond about 200 yards, but the rifle can in the hands of a better shot than I.

The military version of the same rifle is "accurized" to reduce that to around 1/4 MOA when used with hand-loaded rounds to maximize consistency and accuracy. Getting much more accuracy is possible under laboratory conditions, but wind and other environmental factors make such refinements overkill; Hence, "the shooter, not the gun."

Couple of points from the Corisande campaign:

No one says they make every shot at long ranges and there is textev of many misses where commanders briefly expose themselves.

Single volleys of shots did not take out cannon crews but multiple shots over the course of the artillery duel did.

This is indicative aimed fire, but not shot-after-shot .5 MOA fire. Hell, given the wind conditions here (Newfoundland) with my own .22-250 target barrel Remington I rarely can get .5MOA except on the quietest days. But give me a .5 MOA target and I'll get it in a couple of shots.

Given the sights and barrel lengths, I would expect the errors to be more errors of elevation than errors of windage which actually gives a little more leeway actually killing the intended soldiers.

ericth wrote:I was also rereading ( cant recall which novel), during the Corisande campaign, how the specialty sniper rifles could manage head shots at 500 yards. Assuming a head would be a 6x6 target, that's 1/2 Minute of Angle accuracy which I is pushing the limit of a modern day design. True, the specialized Charisian models have supremely long barrels, but 1/2 MOA seems a bit beyond what I'd expect would be possible.

I have a friend who was a military sniper some decades ago, he can still put every shot on a 6" by 6" target at 1000m if he has a sniper rifle(PSG1 was his normal IIRC).

With his standard issue AK-4 he could do the same thing at 500m without any real issue.

And historically, even as early as 17th century, you can find some sniper muskets with quite good accuracy.

ericth wrote:I was re-reading the scene where Merlin demos his new pistols for Cayleb and Protector Stohnar and was struck by how his pistols seemed to have overpenetration issues. If the rounds could go through a double breastplate and splinter wood behind it, I wonder if that constitutes an unacceptable risk of over penetrating when used in close quarters, especially if the bullet doesnt strike bone. I suppose it's possible the combination of large caliber and snub nose would mitigate against it but I wonder.

I haven´t read any of this myself, but a pistol that penetrates double breastplates and more is VERY high powered.

Historically, firearms led to ditching fullbody armour in favour of stronger armour covering less, commonly breastplates and the like, and those could normally stop a pistol bullet at point blank.

Many could stop a musket bullet at point blank.

Even if the breastplate in question isn´t meant for stopping bullets, it still suggests a very extreme weapon.

Most modern pistols can not do this even when firing AP ammo.
Penetrate ONE breastplate and shatter some wood, yes, but 2 breastplates? That is a LOT of metal to punch through.

Tenshinai wrote:
I haven´t read any of this myself, but a pistol that penetrates double breastplates and more is VERY high powered.

Historically, firearms led to ditching fullbody armour in favour of stronger armour covering less, commonly breastplates and the like, and those could normally stop a pistol bullet at point blank.

Many could stop a musket bullet at point blank.

Even if the breastplate in question isn´t meant for stopping bullets, it still suggests a very extreme weapon.

Most modern pistols can not do this even when firing AP ammo.
Penetrate ONE breastplate and shatter some wood, yes, but 2 breastplates? That is a LOT of metal to punch through.

Very high powered would definitely describe the pistols Merlin is using, as they are using a full up .45 rifle cartridge. I suspect that his pistols would be stronger than a .44 Magnum

ericth wrote:I was re-reading the scene where Merlin demos his new pistols for Cayleb and Protector Stohnar and was struck by how his pistols seemed to have overpenetration issues. If the rounds could go through a double breastplate and splinter wood behind it, I wonder if that constitutes an unacceptable risk of over penetrating when used in close quarters, especially if the bullet doesnt strike bone. I suppose it's possible the combination of large caliber and snub nose would mitigate against it but I wonder.

I was also rereading ( cant recall which novel), during the Corisande campaign, how the specialty sniper rifles could manage head shots at 500 yards. Assuming a head would be a 6x6 target, that's 1/2 Minute of Angle accuracy which I is pushing the limit of a modern day design. True, the specialized Charisian models have supremely long barrels, but 1/2 MOA seems a bit beyond what I'd expect would be possible.

So far Google hasnt turned up much of help on either question so I thought I'd throw it out for discussion. RFC is a lifelong shooter and is known for researching little details such as these, and I suspect there may be barflies who can contribute

Actually, 1MOA @ 500 yards is 5.235", so a 6"x6" target represents slightly more than 1 MOA, not 1/2 MOA.

That sort of accuracy is quite possible from black powder firearms- be they cartridge guns or loaded with loose powder and ball- especially when the shot in question is fired from a clean bore with plenty of time to set up for it like the initial shots fired by the scout snipers at Green Valley.

During the Corisande campaign, they were still using front stuffers. Historically, there were muzzle loaders that were capable of that sort of accuracy- if care was taken in their loading.

During the first Creedmoor Match in 1874, the Irish team was shooting Rigby made muzzle loaders against the American team that was shooting a combination of Sharps and Remington breechloaders at ranges out to 1000 yards. The final score of the match was 934-931 in favor of the Americans. They scored a bullseye (the X ring on a Creedmoor target is a 10 inch circle) at 1000 yards for 4 points on their last shot. The Irish team's last shot was at 900 yards and it, too, was a bullseye- he just fired at the wrong target, so it was scored as a 'miss' and it cost them the match.

As for Merlin's new pistols, they are pistols only in name and the fact that they don't have a buttstock. They are chambered for the M96 rifle cartridge but they can fire the shorter pistol round since RFC designed both of them with a common rim diameter and thickness and general external dimensions. The only difference is the case length. (Think of it like putting .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum chambered gun except the length difference is longer). When he did is demonstration, he was shooting the rifle round. I have no problem believing that what is essentially a .45-70 rifle round with a heavier than normal (the "standard" .45-70 is a 405gr bullet) gaschecked bullet made of a very hard alloy can penetrate as written.

When RFC leaked the specs on the pistol round, I decided I was glad that I didn't have to fire them. That heavy a bullet being pushed that fast isn't going to be something that you're going to shoot one handed- even if the propellent is black powder and the felt recoil is going to be lower. The pistol round is closer to a light .454 Caskull or a .45 COLT loaded to .44 Magnum pressures than it is any common 'self defense' round on the market. I also wanted to order 25 pounds or so of that Charisan black powder if they are getting that kind of performance from a pistol round as short as what he listed. We know that 19th Century black powder was stronger than what's on the market today (the DuPont factory that made most of America's BP burned down back in the '20's and black powder hasn't been the same since) and what RFC has come up with is way better than what we have on the shelves today.

Castenea wrote:Very high powered would definitely describe the pistols Merlin is using, as they are using a full up .45 rifle cartridge. I suspect that his pistols would be stronger than a .44 Magnum

Oh gods, another Sternsnacht invented...

...



(ok, that´s a reference to another scifi universe where someone, for a matter of showbiz in combat for entertainment took to using a cut down rifle as his "trademark" finishing weapon)



Still though, even a full out rifleround shouldn´t be knocking holes THAT easily in thick metal plates, plural, and then still have lots of energy left.

jtg452 wrote:

ericth wrote:I was re-reading the scene where Merlin demos his new pistols for Cayleb and Protector Stohnar and was struck by how his pistols seemed to have overpenetration issues. If the rounds could go through a double breastplate and splinter wood behind it, I wonder if that constitutes an unacceptable risk of over penetrating when used in close quarters, especially if the bullet doesnt strike bone. I suppose it's possible the combination of large caliber and snub nose would mitigate against it but I wonder.

I was also rereading ( cant recall which novel), during the Corisande campaign, how the specialty sniper rifles could manage head shots at 500 yards. Assuming a head would be a 6x6 target, that's 1/2 Minute of Angle accuracy which I is pushing the limit of a modern day design. True, the specialized Charisian models have supremely long barrels, but 1/2 MOA seems a bit beyond what I'd expect would be possible.

So far Google hasnt turned up much of help on either question so I thought I'd throw it out for discussion. RFC is a lifelong shooter and is known for researching little details such as these, and I suspect there may be barflies who can contribute

Actually, 1MOA @ 500 yards is 5.235", so a 6"x6" target represents slightly more than 1 MOA, not 1/2 MOA.

That sort of accuracy is quite possible from black powder firearms- be they cartridge guns or loaded with loose powder and ball- especially when the shot in question is fired from a clean bore with plenty of time to set up for it like the initial shots fired by the scout snipers at Green Valley.

During the Corisande campaign, they were still using front stuffers. Historically, there were muzzle loaders that were capable of that sort of accuracy- if care was taken in their loading.

During the first Creedmoor Match in 1874, the Irish team was shooting Rigby made muzzle loaders against the American team that was shooting a combination of Sharps and Remington breechloaders at ranges out to 1000 yards. The final score of the match was 934-931 in favor of the Americans. They scored a bullseye (the X ring on a Creedmoor target is a 10 inch circle) at 1000 yards for 4 points on their last shot. The Irish team's last shot was at 900 yards and it, too, was a bullseye- he just fired at the wrong target, so it was scored as a 'miss' and it cost them the match.

As for Merlin's new pistols, they are pistols only in name and the fact that they don't have a buttstock. They are chambered for the M96 rifle cartridge but they can fire the shorter pistol round since RFC designed both of them with a common rim diameter and thickness and general external dimensions. The only difference is the case length. (Think of it like putting .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum chambered gun except the length difference is longer). When he did is demonstration, he was shooting the rifle round. I have no problem believing that what is essentially a .45-70 rifle round with a heavier than normal (the "standard" .45-70 is a 405gr bullet) gaschecked bullet made of a very hard alloy can penetrate as written.

When RFC leaked the specs on the pistol round, I decided I was glad that I didn't have to fire them. That heavy a bullet being pushed that fast isn't going to be something that you're going to shoot one handed- even if the propellent is black powder and the felt recoil is going to be lower. The pistol round is closer to a light .454 Caskull or a .45 COLT loaded to .44 Magnum pressures than it is any common 'self defense' round on the market. I also wanted to order 25 pounds or so of that Charisan black powder if they are getting that kind of performance from a pistol round as short as what he listed. We know that 19th Century black powder was stronger than what's on the market today (the DuPont factory that made most of America's BP burned down back in the '20's and black powder hasn't been the same since) and what RFC has come up with is way better than what we have on the shelves today.

You are referring to the demonsration that Merlin gave to Protector Stohnar and Cayleb in LAMA. IIRC those pistols did have the capability of using the rifle round but had shorter barrels. That would mean that they were pistols, not rifles, with lower muzzle velocity and shorter range. Do I have that right?

Don

Tenshinai wrote:Still though, even a full out rifleround shouldn´t be knocking holes THAT easily in thick metal plates, plural, and then still have lots of energy left.

A standard 30-06 round will punch cleanly through 2 separate 1" cold-rolled steel plates 8 feet apart, show deformation on the third and still be intact enough to ricochet off of the 4th (angled) plate.