Logic behind splitting Lacoon?

Re. the "This is how L2 differs from L1" answers, I could see how that was the case but not, given the situation, how the extra couple weeks* to decide whether to proceed with L2 would be useful.

Lacoon II was launched 2-3 months after Lacoon I (we never get a hard date for when the order goes out to start Lacoon I). There's a lot more time in the command control loop there, in order to ensure that A) all the Manticoran civilian vessels have time to get the orders and get home; and B) make sure the Sollies recognize what's going on and have an outbreak of sanity.

Some posters feel that L-1 gives the Sollies
sufficient time to prepare for L-2.
Someone wrote "weeks" of time.

I doubt very much that "weeks" of warning would suffice.
My guess: it would take those weeks just to get the
message back to SLN HQ at Sol, more weeks to recognize
the Next Step and decide what to do about it (with a very
good chance they'd File & Forget it), and then still more
weeks to choose ships to send, find them (not trivial!),
and get them on their way (we deploy in ten days!).
By now the Sollies are three months behind, at least,
and still have not begun the Travel Time to Patrol Areas.

I do not expect many defenders to arrive in time.

HTM

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Some posters feel that L-1 gives the Sollies
sufficient time to prepare for L-2.
Someone wrote "weeks" of time.

Indeed, Duckk in the post directly above yours says 2-3 months between Lacoon I and II.

I doubt very much that "weeks" of warning would suffice.

My guess: it would take those weeks just to get the
message back to SLN HQ at Sol, more weeks to recognize
the Next Step and decide what to do about it (with a very
good chance they'd File & Forget it), and then still more
weeks to choose ships to send, find them (not trivial!),
and get them on their way (we deploy in ten days!).
By now the Sollies are three months behind, at least,
and still have not begun the Travel Time to Patrol Areas.

I do not expect many defenders to arrive in time.

HTM

I can't argue with your logic, Howard, and I concur that the simple inertia of SLN Command who are trying to process things 'the way they have always done' is going to be much to slow to react to the SEM, which is used to taking decisive (and quick) action.

Still, you would think someone, even just a FF commander, would think ahead a little and try to prevent any further incursion.

And it seems to me if wormholes are such a valuable resource, any within the SL proper would have had a local SDF and/or SLN squadron assigner to that system--or within easy reach.

But maybe the SLN is truly that complacent--even after Spindle and Second Manticore...

We shall see, hopefully, come the next book.

Interesting discussion.

Hutch wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Some posters feel that L-1 gives the Sollies
sufficient time to prepare for L-2.
Someone wrote "weeks" of time.

Indeed, Duckk in the post directly above yours says 2-3 months between Lacoon I and II.

I doubt very much that "weeks" of warning would suffice.

My guess: it would take those weeks just to get the
message back to SLN HQ at Sol, more weeks to recognize
the Next Step and decide what to do about it (with a very
good chance they'd File & Forget it), and then still more
weeks to choose ships to send, find them (not trivial!),
and get them on their way (we deploy in ten days!).
By now the Sollies are three months behind, at least,
and still have not begun the Travel Time to Patrol Areas.

I do not expect many defenders to arrive in time.

HTM

I can't argue with your logic, Howard, and I concur that the simple inertia of SLN Command who are trying to process things 'the way they have always done' is going to be much to slow to react to the SEM, which is used to taking decisive (and quick) action.

Still, you would think someone, even just a FF commander, would think ahead a little and try to prevent any further incursion.

And it seems to me if wormholes are such a valuable resource, any within the SL proper would have had a local SDF and/or SLN squadron assigner to that system--or within easy reach.

But maybe the SLN is truly that complacent--even after Spindle and Second Manticore...

We shall see, hopefully, come the next book.

Interesting discussion.

There has always been a difference between closing YOUR ports (wormholes) while recalling your merchant marine and active commerce raiding and effectively blockading everyone else's ports (wormholes) to your shipping. One is an act of self defense (even though it has a taste of economic warfare to it) and the other is out right warfare. The first has been the perogative of any polity in history, the second is always part of, or the predecessor to, war.

Duckk wrote:

Re. the "This is how L2 differs from L1" answers, I could see how that was the case but not, given the situation, how the extra couple weeks* to decide whether to proceed with L2 would be useful.

Lacoon II was launched 2-3 months after Lacoon I (we never get a hard date for when the order goes out to start Lacoon I). There's a lot more time in the command control loop there, in order to ensure that A) all the Manticoran civilian vessels have time to get the orders and get home; and B) make sure the Sollies recognize what's going on and have an outbreak of sanity.

Thanks for the clarification.

In SoF, L-1 is still ongoing as L-2 is beginning.

We have to remember that it takes weeks to send messages via dispatch boat, warship and freighter throughout the SL to inform all merchant ships that they are recalled. At best it takes the merchant ships weeks to get out of SL space or to a wormhole termini that leads back to Manticore. As Weber illustrated in detail, a lot of merchant ships want to get that last haul in to avoid penalties before returning from the SL. It would probably take a six month lag to ensure that all RMMN ships were out of SL space before initiating L-2.

L-2 was probably predicated on the presumption that the SLN was too arrogant to believe any neobarb would dare to seize a SLN dominated terminus.

In spite of this, a few FF commanders did have the foresight to be on hand to engage RMN
expeditionary squadrons before bravely running away.

A little overlap between L-1 and L-2 was probably unavoidable but it is probable that 90% of RMMN ships were out of SL space befor the RMN started seizing termini.

namelessfly wrote:In spite of this, a few FF commanders did have the foresight to be on hand to engage RMN
expeditionary squadrons before bravely running away.

All were in command of ships named (variations of) SLNS Sir Robin.

namelessfly wrote:

Duckk wrote:Lacoon 1 is largely non-offensive. It gets all the non-combatants home, while still putting the economic screws on the League. Manticore has been saying they don't want a war with the League, so jumping straight to Lacoon 2's commerce raiding can definitely be seen as an act of war by the League's citizens. As seen in ART, a very large segment of the League can't comprehend that anyone is actually willing to go to war with it. By launching Lacoon 1 first, Manticore gives the League time to realize the fire they are playing with, without committing to open hostilities which could lead to loss of life and give fresh incidents to continue driving the conflict.

Absolutely agree here. Lacoon 1 is simply an economic sanction that deprives the SL of the merchant fleet that hauls most of it's commerce and access to the Manticore controlled portion of the wormhole network that allows the remaining SL merchant fleet to operate efficiently. It is comparable to say Egypt and Panama recalling their merchant fleets (a bit of a stretch here) while closing their canals to US registered ships. It would anger the US and probably provoke a military response (at least from former President Bush or a hypothetical President Palin) but it would not be an overt act of war.

Not quit the stretch you think it is Panama along with Liberia are known as flag of convenience nations because of lax regulations and rules. IIRC something like 40-60% of the worlds shipping tonnage is under these nations flags, but the big 5 maritime nations ie US UK S Korea China and Japan own upwards of 50% of the worlds shipping tonnage, but the US has about 1% of the world shipping tonnage under its flag.

MaxxQ wrote:

namelessfly wrote:In spite of this, a few FF commanders did have the foresight to be on hand to engage RMN
expeditionary squadrons before bravely running away.

All were in command of ships named (variations of) SLNS Sir Robin.

I can here their squires banging the coconut shells together even now.

Reminds me of a Sheriffs deputy I encountered on my back porch several months ago. One would think that he might have turned around when he noticed the tractor parked in my driveway with the wood chipper hooked up to it.

I always wondered about a Lacoon III. The gloves come off and Solarian League Merchant Shipping is now considered a legitimate target for commerce raiding.

I know when they first talk about Case Lacoon they do mention commerce raiding when they talk about it. But its been more denial of trade routes so far, not open hunting season on Solly Merchies. Which if the Transtellars thought Lacoon II was bad, they aint seen nothing yet.

Hutch wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Some posters feel that L-1 gives the Sollies
sufficient time to prepare for L-2.
Someone wrote "weeks" of time.

Indeed, Duckk in the post directly above yours says 2-3 months between Lacoon I and II.

I doubt very much that "weeks" of warning would suffice.

My guess: it would take those weeks just to get the
message back to SLN HQ at Sol, more weeks to recognize
the Next Step and decide what to do about it (with a very
good chance they'd File & Forget it), and then still more
weeks to choose ships to send, find them (not trivial!),
and get them on their way (we deploy in ten days!).
By now the Sollies are three months behind, at least,
and still have not begun the Travel Time to Patrol Areas.

I do not expect many defenders to arrive in time.

HTM

I can't argue with your logic, Howard, and I concur that the simple inertia of SLN Command who are trying to process things 'the way they have always done' is going to be much to slow to react to the SEM, which is used to taking decisive (and quick) action.

Still, you would think someone, even just a FF commander, would think ahead a little and try to prevent any further incursion.

And it seems to me if wormholes are such a valuable resource, any within the SL proper would have had a local SDF and/or SLN squadron assigner to that system--or within easy reach.

But maybe the SLN is truly that complacent--even after Spindle and Second Manticore...

We shall see, hopefully, come the next book.

Interesting discussion.

Hi Hutch,

Your reasoning seems sound here, but I suspect that due to sheer distance, a substantial portion of the SLN won't have tumbled to what is going on, may not have even heard of Spindle or 2nd Manticore let alone understand the implications. That will make their resonse lethargic and slow to realize how things have changed.

Don