New SLN and SDF ships

My 2 cents' worth.

Given recent developments in storyline plot aka Beowulf seceding from the League, it would seem to me that a naturally occurring event in terms of Beowulf Leaders' planning must be an accessment of Beowulf's ablility to defend said system from the SLN in terms of both reprisal or out right invasion to "revamp" Beowulf's government.

That being said, i concur with the many points being raised about Beowulf having the infomation and the technology/ability to upgrade its weapons system to Manty/Grayson designs. The arguement here appears to be whether how much of its exisitng SDF have the technology deployed.

I would argue as basis of plot that most likely existing weapons system already upgraded to Beowulf SDF to be almost everything Manticore has with the sole exception of project Apollo/Keyhole 2 given how drastically a game changer it has been after its deployment in the Battle of Manticore.

In other words, i would most probably expect Beowulf weapons tech to be at least on par/better with Havenite ships of the wall or in the event of difficulties in upgrading its weapons system under the "so called" close scrutiny of the League, Beowulf's weapons tech should at least be of the calibre of Manty systems as at the ceasefire period between Haven and Manticore which lasted (correct if im wrong)5 years, which sounds reasonable to me in terms of missile pod firing capability for its exisitng ships of the wall.

Whether it possess an entire battle squadron of pod-laying SDPs is a qn best left to the author as it can be argued both ways both for or against. One possibility is that an actual Manty/Grayson battle squadron in the books could have been delivered or actually crewed by Beowulf personnel could be a possibility though how it would be hidden in terms of actual operations may be a more difficult nut to solve. XD

In fact, you can add to the story's plot of unfinished Beowulf SDPs designs that were half finished in Manty/Grayson shipyards but got busted during Oyster Bay.

Imagine the Board of Directors' dismay over untold trillions lost of their almost finished SDPs during the surprise attack of Oyster Bay though it seems to mirror the aftermath of Grendelsbane ^^

which i rarely find DW to repeat such plots ^^ though i would appreciate if such an occurence happening to the Mesan Alignment in future events, as part of divine retribution (payback is a bit*h from my way of thinking XD)

A lot of people are mentioning that it is not likely the BSDF would have the newest equipment on their 36 SDs because insufficient time has passed to cycle them all through for refits since Manticore first uncorked the Buttercup fleet etc.

However I think more consideration should be given to these three points:
1. Beowulf's tech level is equivalent to Manticore's
2. Beowulf and Manticore has been close allies for a long time.
3. Beowulf does a bit of 'friendly' espionage into Manticore as well

I think that Beowulf may even be aware of what is happening in terms of R&D at the WDB level. Maybe they are hooked into Buships and have a very good idea of what is coming up and know what sort of dimensions/specifications are required.

Some things like all-graser and new compensators I think are actually less likely to be universally retrofitted, since these came 'recently' (decade and a half ago?) thanks to Grayson. Other things such as MDM, Micro Fusion Bottles, Pods, Beta Squared Nodes and FTL Comm I think are more likely to be fitted because Beowulf would be 'looking over Manticore's shoulder' (with and/or without Manticore's permission).

I'm not certain if military security applies to passing this sort of information to Beowulf.

BobfromSydney wrote:A lot of people are mentioning that it is not likely the BSDF would have the newest equipment on their 36 SDs because insufficient time has passed to cycle them all through for refits since Manticore first uncorked the Buttercup fleet etc.

However I think more consideration should be given to these three points:
1. Beowulf's tech level is equivalent to Manticore's
2. Beowulf and Manticore has been close allies for a long time.
3. Beowulf does a bit of 'friendly' espionage into Manticore as well

I think that Beowulf may even be aware of what is happening in terms of R&D at the WDB level. Maybe they are hooked into Buships and have a very good idea of what is coming up and know what sort of dimensions/specifications are required.

Some things like all-graser and new compensators I think are actually less likely to be universally retrofitted, since these came 'recently' (decade and a half ago?) thanks to Grayson. Other things such as MDM, Micro Fusion Bottles, Pods, Beta Squared Nodes and FTL Comm I think are more likely to be fitted because Beowulf would be 'looking over Manticore's shoulder' (with and/or without Manticore's permission).

I'm not certain if military security applies to passing this sort of information to Beowulf.

I think you missed something. There is no need for Beowulf to spy on Manticore. It is pretty clear from Weber's infodumps that Manticore has kept Beowulf apprised of technological advances, all along. But Beowulf deliberately did not put most of it into production, because they didn't want the rest of the Solarian League to see it.

SWM wrote:I think you missed something. There is no need for Beowulf to spy on Manticore. It is pretty clear from Weber's infodumps that Manticore has kept Beowulf apprised of technological advances, all along. But Beowulf deliberately did not put most of it into production, because they didn't want the rest of the Solarian League to see it.

It's certainly possible that some equipment spaces are rather larger than one might expect, include additional unused conduits, or possibly have unusually large, oddly shaped and unusually located "boat bays". Things like that.

kzt wrote:It's certainly possible that some equipment spaces are rather larger than one might expect, include additional unused conduits, or possibly have unusually large, oddly shaped and unusually located "boat bays". Things like that.

That all depends on two very big questions:

1) How old are the ships of the BSDF, particularly the wall?

2) Who actually built those ships? Were they built by Beowulf-owned shipyards in the Sigma Draconis system, or did they come from one of the League's military suppliers? My impression is that most of the SLN's hardware comes from transtellars like Technodyne, which raises a problem if you want to undertake any kind of secret refit and upgrade program. If you're ordering a class of SD's you could certainly ask for additional space to be left for future upgrades. If you start specifying what spaces, of what shape, in what locations, people with nasty, suspicious, greedy minds will start to wonder exactly how far in the future those upgrades will be happening, because it sounds like you already know exactly what they're going to involve.

Just because it is one of my (many) pet hobby horse's.

Did anybody else notice some of the interesting thoughts in Chapter Two of the new snippet for CoG. Not wanting to get into spoiler territory here but...

I thought it was interesting. Not that it takes much for me to get into too much thought anyway.

Have fun,
T2M

Dafmeister wrote:That all depends on two very big questions:

1) How old are the ships of the BSDF, particularly the wall?

2) Who actually built those ships? Were they built by Beowulf-owned shipyards in the Sigma Draconis system, or did they come from one of the League's military suppliers? My impression is that most of the SLN's hardware comes from transtellars like Technodyne, which raises a problem if you want to undertake any kind of secret refit and upgrade program. If you're ordering a class of SD's you could certainly ask for additional space to be left for future upgrades. If you start specifying what spaces, of what shape, in what locations, people with nasty, suspicious, greedy minds will start to wonder exactly how far in the future those upgrades will be happening, because it sounds like you already know exactly what they're going to involve.

Relax wrote:
You do not need to look at "acadamia", especially since nearly all of our inventions today do not come out of acadamia, but out of common joe person. Now maybe in Honorverses time that changes... I doubt it.

Please tell me where the science/technology for nuclear weapons, nuclear reactors, lasers etc. come from.

Even DARPA poaches researchers straight out of MIT etc.

KNick's original point that some 'blue sky' physics etc. research could turn out to be weaponisable. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Quite a lot of useful ideas, inventions and processes get invented in Academia.

A very select few.

Instead of your nuclear example, I would have stated MRI.

Counter arguments would be all radio/radar inventions includes semi conductors. All types of engines, most materials/chemicals are not via academia.

I notice you used nuclear research as your first stated "invention". Academia did not invent it. They theorized the possibility. Gigantic difference between theory and the application thereof. The application thereof is the invention. Theory is not invention. The nuclear bomb invention were developed in specific labs. If it were not for the, pardon the pun, explosive toxic nature of the application of theory, these labs would have been commercialized long ago. But due to the destructive nature, government stepped in forcing nearly everyone even thinking of applying this new line of research out other than a very few pre selected companies to develop their inventions.

Academia teaches theory, and occasionally their students apply the theory and come up with something while still in school. After all these students are no different than those Joes/Jills already working in industry. They have more leeway, fewer family obligations allowing them to take risks starting a company.

So, yes, inventions can come from academia, but they are very rare. Rather it takes average Joe reading a journal and looking at what they are working on and applying it. Inventions are generally the result after the lightbulb comes on allowing blue sky to sniff reality. Academia is great at blue sky. Blue sky does not create anything. Is blue sky availability needed to create a leap forward? Generally it is But the brilliance of inventions is in the application of multiple threads of the engineering discipline. These threads have nothing to do with theory, but everything to do with reality and our dear friend murphy in most cases. Occasionally, one must apply theory to find the perfect material, or theorize a class of materials needed to complete something. This is especially true on the nano scale. If I went back to school, I would specifically target nano engineering. It is where all the earth shattering inventions will be coming from in the foreseeable future.

There is one thing Academia is good at. Pretty much because they have a lock on the talent pool. Medical research & development. Due to the very lengthy PH.d process creating a very large closed to poaching slave labor pool for a minimum of 4 years after college, allows creative students to apply the theory taught. Therefore, medical inventions are created frequently in academia due to this hostage work force. IE work for us with nearly no compensation or you will never get your degree and never be able to become a doctor. Yea, I know, slight diff between MD's and PHD's in the bioscience. Sister got the PHD in bio. Heard all about it. The corruption, the blatant falsifying of information, the stealing of ideas allowing them to actually get hired by a select few pharmaceutical companies and therefore a half decent wage. If you think you have it bad in your line of work after school, it is nothing compared to those who go into the biosciences. (Not MD). Go to school for a very long time and what do you have to show for it? Generally a very low paying job, or no job at all.

This does not work in the engineering world as the difference between an engineer with a BS degree and someone with a PHD in their respective engineering profession is effectively nothing. Engineering, is the application of theory. The problem is that anyone who is not utterly lazy can pick up a journal and quickly absorb the high points(conclusions generally) of the theory without going into the very long and tedious theorized background. Those that have been applying the theory longer are better at it(those working with various aspects daily). Also, working engineers have the background data allowing them to ascertain the possible avenues of application. Those sitting in academia land do not. There is no way in this world a university could amass this information without developing products. Since they do not develop products, they cannot develop the application of theory. Therefore if someone graduates with a couple more years of theory under their belts, it can benefit them personally, but not as efficiently as the parts of the theory that need to be used in engineering land can generally be self taught in about a day or two from a semester course taught in school. Pull the nuggets of interest out, and toss the rest. A 85-95% information grab is more than sufficient for the beginning of the data collection process determining if the theory is BS or not. Nearly every new material, engine, chemical process, electronics have come about by reading up on recent theorized(see previous listing) and then applying it via the route of experience.

The classic example of this is the Wright Brothers. They developed an engine better than anything anyone had seen up till this time period. Essentially invented the wind tunnel. There were others. Created airfoil profiles. Effectively invented the propeller, and most importantly control and stability application. Did they get everything right? No. Just mostly. They applied a little basic theory with a gigantic dose of observed application of phenomena.

Ug, sorry for long post.

Pet Peeve? Hmm maybe.

BobfromSydney wrote:Please tell me where the science/technology for nuclear weapons, nuclear reactors, lasers etc. come from.

Even DARPA poaches researchers straight out of MIT etc.

KNick's original point that some 'blue sky' physics etc. research could turn out to be weaponisable. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Quite a lot of useful ideas, inventions and processes get invented in Academia.

PS. DARPA/AIRFORCE does not invent anything. Rather guides $$$ where they think companies research should be applied. Or in many cases, companies go to DARPA who talks to the navy and the airforce, looking for funding for areas of inventiveness applicability into weapons. As, internal funding for these weaponized inventions does not exist outside of government. Uh, hem, creating new inventions... Therefore those in DARPA can't be ignorant. They have to have a wide base in theory. Working with them can be a serious PITA. Yea, they are knowledgeable, but man it is frustrating working on a black project. They have the theory, but not why certain parts of said theory hit ol' murphy right upside the head and become useless or a deal killer.

If we work under the OFTEN repeated line that the SLN hasn't been intersted in things deveolped by the neo-barbs then we do have some leeway with what Beowulf has or hassn't been building into their ships.

Since they do have access to Manticorian tech it is POSSIBLE that they have incorporated at least "Manticore Lite" versions into the newer ships and retrofits on others. They also could have been splicing in the capabilityies to use things like the M-16 and M23 missiles and Keyhole.

Nobody has actually mentioned observers from SLN showing up to "visit" the BSDF to see what they might be doing that would be worth looking at or that they might be doing that the SLN should be "concerned" about.

We have heard a number for the BSDF SDs. How about the lesser ships. How many, what capabilities? Heck, Beowulf could have been having ships built at Grayson and have squadrons of all-up Manti/Grason version ships operating (with trained crews) and the SL might not know it. That doesn't mean the Alignment wouldn't know about it except that we 1) haven't heard about any depth of penetration of BSDF or government by Malignment agents and 2) The Detweilers have been REMARKABLEY silent about plans or information reguarding Beowulf except for the expected rubbing of Beowulf's face in the acendence of Malignment Eugenitcs and Biology Tech over Beowulf BioScience.

Or, MMM has that amoung other things coasting in out of the dark for the next novel.

I've seen nothing that says the SLN has any right to inspect the ships of a SL SDF.