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Graser replacement

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Re: Graser replacement
Post by kzt   » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:08 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:They're described as "autocannon," which is a term in current use for weapons that fire a variety of shells, such as armor-piercing, fragmentary, explosive etc., at a high rate of fire, sometimes up to 10,000 rounds per minute. They're distinguished from machine guns in that the latter only fire solid slugs. Autocannon also generally fire larger shells.

Yes, but it's been later clarified that what the honorverse means with autocannon is a very rapid fire grav gun. It's roughly identical to Skimpers idea.
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Re: Graser replacement
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:45 pm

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namelessfly wrote:Weber's fusion bottles using gravity containment effectively create a gravity well that prevents fusion reaction products which have an average initial velocity of 1/10 Cee from escaping. Weber has this technology shrunk down to fusion bottles that can fit inside a Mk -16 missile which is only 2 meters in diameter.
Are you sure the Mk-16's use grav pinch fusion and not the laser confinement fusion that pinnaces and shuttles use?
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Re: Graser replacement
Post by kzt   » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:58 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Are you sure the Mk-16's use grav pinch fusion and not the laser confinement fusion that pinnaces and shuttles use?

I'm pretty sure Mk16s, Mk23s and recon drones all use the exact same reactor.
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Re: Graser replacement
Post by Michael Everett   » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:02 pm

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Are you sure the Mk-16's use grav pinch fusion and not the laser confinement fusion that pinnaces and shuttles use?

I'm pretty sure Mk16s, Mk23s and recon drones all use the exact same reactor.


They must need very long extension leads...
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Re: Graser replacement
Post by kzt   » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:25 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:They must need very long extension leads...

No, it's been clearly established that there is no such thing as power cords in the Honorverse. :P
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Re: Graser replacement
Post by MaxxQ   » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:25 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:
kzt wrote:I'm pretty sure Mk16s, Mk23s and recon drones all use the exact same reactor.


They must need very long extension leads...


Funny, Michael :lol:

As for the reactors, I always get the two types mixed up and can't remember which is used for what. Mk16s and Mk23s use the same *type* of reactor, but that of the Mk23 is slightly larger than that of a Mk16. I'm not sure if recon drones use the same type of reactor as the missiles. Probably, but don't quote me on that.

I'm pretty sure that missile reactors are a different type than those used by pinnaces, etc., although I *might* be wrong about that.
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Re: Graser replacement
Post by Vince   » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:19 pm

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SWM wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:The cluster warhead.

Might not this work on missiles as well?

As you all know I'm no physicist, I figured a gigawatt laser must use a lot of power, enough to power a country at current era for a while?

Given we can accelerate with a rail or guass gun a projectile to 8kms now, in 2000+ years making it go 100,000 times that shouldn't be out of the question. Just requires power.

Also couldn't the wedge just spit the projectile out at near light speed? Plus the build up would be, for a SD 280+km.

Also it depends how fast the enemy ship is going, if they are going 0.3c and you are going 0.2c you only need 0.5c any more wouldn't make any difference. Can't go faster than 1c.

Didn't consider sidewalls. Do ships flying into a system jig and jog or just fly in throat wide open? Jigging and jogging would slow them down, no?

I always read the books as having them come blazing right in.

I can see a slug that isn't right in front of a ship having an even harder time avoiding a sidewall, a slight angle off and the sidewall kills the idea. Unless you use a laser head or have this as an aft firing chase launcher, while running away. Some kind of wedge accelerated KEW launcher on a freighter might give a pirate second thoughts.

Skimper, you are misunderstanding the basic problem.

Suppose a graser has a power of 1 gigajoules. To produce the same amount of damage with a kinetic energy weapon, you have to have a kinetic energy of about 1 gigajoules. That means you have to expend more than 1 gigajoule accelerating that KEW.

So whether it is a beam weapon or a KEW, you have to somehow generate the about same amount of energy in order to produce a given amount of damage. This is a rough approximation, because certain types of armor work better against particular types of damage, so it depends somewhat on the armor. But at the energy ranges of Honorverse grasers, the type of damage damage is nearly identical to a kinetic impact, anyway.

Using less energy on your weapon just means that you will cause less damage. In order to cause the same amount of damage as a graser, you will have to use about the same amount of energy accelerating a KEW.

Issac Newton:

First law: When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force.

Second law: F = ma. The vector sum of the forces F on an object is equal to the mass m of that object multiplied by the acceleration vector a of the object.

Third law: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.

Has anyone calculated how much recoil the ship that mounts this KEW experiences when it fires it? One of the nice things about lasers and grasers is they have practically no recoil. (They do have some - see the problems that satellites with very high precision pointing requirements have with the momentum imparted by sunlight striking their solar panels <an example of this is the Kepler telescope in its current degraded state with only 2 gyroscopic wheels operational> - but the recoil of a laser or graser is extremely small compared to accelerating a normal mass to incredibly high speeds.)

Would it exceed the capacity of the inertial compensator (instant anchovy paste for the crew)? (We have textev of the crew feeling the recoil of the broadside missiles when they are fired from the tubes. Might not be realistic from a technical point of view, but it's there.)

Would the recoil exceed even the ability of Honorverse materials to stand up to the forces involved?
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Re: Graser replacement
Post by dreamrider   » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:01 pm

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MaxxQ wrote:As for the reactors, I always get the two types mixed up and can't remember which is used for what. Mk16s and Mk23s use the same *type* of reactor, but that of the Mk23 is slightly larger than that of a Mk16. I'm not sure if recon drones use the same type of reactor as the missiles. Probably, but don't quote me on that.

I'm pretty sure that missile reactors are a different type than those used by pinnaces, etc., although I *might* be wrong about that.


David discussed this somewhere.

One of the key differences between the missile spaceframe and the smallcraft spaceframe is that missiles and drones don't have any inconvenient biological components to ridiculously limit acceptable environmental radiation bloom. So no, the shielded and clean fusion reactor of smallcraft is not the same as the small but messy reactors of missiles and drones.

(drones may use a variant of the smallcraft version because, of course, you don't want them to have the light-speed radiation sig of a tiny star, and you often pick them up again. But then again, they only attempt to accelerate at a few thousand g's, not 96,000g's.)
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Re: Graser replacement
Post by MaxxQ   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:05 am

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dreamrider wrote:
MaxxQ wrote:As for the reactors, I always get the two types mixed up and can't remember which is used for what. Mk16s and Mk23s use the same *type* of reactor, but that of the Mk23 is slightly larger than that of a Mk16. I'm not sure if recon drones use the same type of reactor as the missiles. Probably, but don't quote me on that.

I'm pretty sure that missile reactors are a different type than those used by pinnaces, etc., although I *might* be wrong about that.


David discussed this somewhere.

One of the key differences between the missile spaceframe and the smallcraft spaceframe is that missiles and drones don't have any inconvenient biological components to ridiculously limit acceptable environmental radiation bloom. So no, the shielded and clean fusion reactor of smallcraft is not the same as the small but messy reactors of missiles and drones.

(drones may use a variant of the smallcraft version because, of course, you don't want them to have the light-speed radiation sig of a tiny star, and you often pick them up again. But then again, they only attempt to accelerate at a few thousand g's, not 96,000g's.)


Yup... now that you've mentioned it, I recall the discussion(s) about "man-rated" reactors.
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Re: Graser replacement
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:53 am

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kzt wrote:I'm pretty sure Mk16s, Mk23s and recon drones all use the exact same reactor.


Michael Everett wrote:They must need very long extension leads...


MaxxQ wrote:Funny, Michael :lol:

As for the reactors, I always get the two types mixed up and can't remember which is used for what. Mk16s and Mk23s use the same *type* of reactor, but that of the Mk23 is slightly larger than that of a Mk16. I'm not sure if recon drones use the same type of reactor as the missiles. Probably, but don't quote me on that.

I'm pretty sure that missile reactors are a different type than those used by pinnaces, etc., although I *might* be wrong about that.


The earliest reference I can find to "micro-fusion" reactors is in At All Costs, where it's said that they were developed for Ghost Rider, and that the drones, EW platforms and so forth all use them. They're not just for missiles.
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