Baseless speculation.

Tonto Silerheels wrote:keylime314 wrote: But she would have absolutely NO REASON to have even tried to redownload the original. She wouldn't get anything new from doing so, she would already have it PLUS the time she was active. So why?

I don't think she did it. I think Pei Kau-yung did it. He did it because the system that had been set up was yielding to corruption and stagnation. He couldn't re-start the original Nimue because over the centuries she had developed a suicide complex due to the unbearable memories she had created during her long and active life. No other personalities would fit into Nimue's PICA. His only viable alternative was to download a "pristine" copy of Nimue into it.

~Tonto

Kau-yung went boom with the first temple. So his ghost did it?

And if you're going to say he uploaded himself into Owl since you said centuries, where is he now? He must have deleted himself since when Narmahn and Owl found the backup of Nimue in LAMA they probably would have done a check for backups of other people. Why doesn't Owl know about any of this? Did Kau-yung wipe Owl too? Why were Owls systems unused for 700+ years? Why did the cave only contain an original copy of the writ instead of the updated post-nuke version with the books of Chihiro and Schueler and the other alterations? Why did Nimue have to learn the changed language instead of having a nice prepackaged download waiting for her with Owl? Why would Kau-yung have deleted the information on the Rakurai they would have gathered during those centuries?

keylime314 wrote: Kau-yung went boom with the first temple.

First temple?

And if you're going to say he uploaded himself into Owl since you said centuries, where is he now?

No. I'm not going to say he uploaded himself into anything. I did say centuries, but that's really too long. I'm not sure what the minimum time is for someone's experiences to give them a desire to suicide, but I claim it's possible that (the first) Nimue-in-PICA could have lived longer than that minimum time. Where is he now? He's dead. Now, it may not have been him who first downloaded Nimue into the PICA. It may have been his followers. But I do think that enough time passed from when the first Nimue was downloaded until the recording of Kau-yung was made. After all, Nimue recognised that Kau-yung appeared much older, and we know that he had received longevity treatments.

~Tonto

Tonto Silerheels wrote:keylime314 wrote: Kau-yung went boom with the first temple.

First temple?

Yes, the first Temple, the one that Pei Kau-Yung destroyed with a pocket nuke, killing himself, Langhorne, and many other top-ranked Angels. The temple whose destruction spawned the Angelic Wars which you say the first incarnation of the PICA fought in.

Pei died before those wars started. The Temple was rebuilt after the Angelic Wars.

And if you're going to say he uploaded himself into Owl since you said centuries, where is he now?

No. I'm not going to say he uploaded himself into anything. I did say centuries, but that's really too long. I'm not sure what the minimum time is for someone's experiences to give them a desire to suicide, but I claim it's possible that (the first) Nimue-in-PICA could have lived longer than that minimum time. Where is he now? He's dead. Now, it may not have been him who first downloaded Nimue into the PICA. It may have been his followers. But I do think that enough time passed from when the first Nimue was downloaded until the recording of Kau-yung was made. After all, Nimue recognised that Kau-yung appeared much older, and we know that he had received longevity treatments.

~Tonto

The recording of Nimue occurred on Earth, years before Nimue joined the expedition to Safehold. The message recording of Pei was made just before Pei activated the pocket nuke in the original Temple. The journey to Safehold took a long time, and the terraforming of Safehold took a long time, and there was another century between the First Day of Creation and Pei's destruction of the first Temple. That's why Nimue thought Pei looked older when she woke up in the cave--Pei was well over a century older than Nimue's memories recorded in the Pica.

SWM wrote: Yes, the first Temple, the one that Pei Kau-Yung destroyed with a pocket nuke, killing himself, Langhorne, and many other top-ranked Angels. The temple whose destruction spawned the Angelic Wars which you say the first incarnation of the PICA fought in.

How do you know Langhorne was in a Temple when he was murdered?

The recording of Nimue occurred on Earth, years before Nimue joined the expedition to Safehold. The message recording of Pei was made just before Pei activated the pocket nuke in the original Temple. The journey to Safehold took a long time, and the terraforming of Safehold took a long time, and there was another century between the First Day of Creation and Pei's destruction of the first Temple. That's why Nimue thought Pei looked older when she woke up in the cave--Pei was well over a century older than Nimue's memories recorded in the Pica.

You've convinced me.

~Tonto

Tonto Silerheels wrote:SWM wrote: Yes, the first Temple, the one that Pei Kau-Yung destroyed with a pocket nuke, killing himself, Langhorne, and many other top-ranked Angels. The temple whose destruction spawned the Angelic Wars which you say the first incarnation of the PICA fought in.

How do you know Langhorne was in a Temple when he was murdered?

I'm afraid my copy of Off Armageddon Reef has gone missing (gotta replace it), so this is from memory.

Pei's message said he was about to go into a big meeting of the top Archangels, in their headquarters. Pei intended to take as many of them with him as possible. The text describes an Archangel visiting a village, and telling them that Shan-Wei had rebelled against God and had been struck down. The village is described as along the south shore of Lake Pei. From that village, they suddenly see a mushroom cloud across the Lake, over Zion. That is Pei's pocket nuke going off.

I think there is mention somewhere that the original Zion did have a Temple (presumably Langhorne's headquarters, but I can't check to be certain.

There have been hints that the Hamilcar (which had full manufactory equipment) may have been instrumental in reconstructing Zion later.

SWM wrote: The village is described as along the south shore of Lake Pei. From that village, they suddenly see a mushroom cloud across the Lake, over Zion. That is Pei's pocket nuke going off.

The reason I ask is that I initially was under the impression that the explosion happened aboard ship. This was quite some time ago, and previous to this discussion. I went back and re-read the passage, as I did again this time. The explosion is described as a very bright light far north of the village you describe--possibly as far north as the far shore of lake Pei.

The way I reason is that if the villagers knew about a temple on the north shore of Lake Pei, then the explosion wouldn't have been described that way. They would have wondered, instead, whether the bright light had happened at the temple. I conclude that the villagers, at least, knew nothing about the temple.

Secondly, I seem to recall a second passage to the effect that the Temple was constructed as a testimony to the victory of the angels on the side of Light over the fallen angels. If that's so, then why was the first Temple constructed, if it existed? Why wouldn't the Temple have been constructed as a replacement for the first one which was destroyed? I couldn't find that passage for this discussion.

~Tonto

Tonto Silerheels wrote:SWM wrote: The village is described as along the south shore of Lake Pei. From that village, they suddenly see a mushroom cloud across the Lake, over Zion. That is Pei's pocket nuke going off.

The reason I ask is that I initially was under the impression that the explosion happened aboard ship. This was quite some time ago, and previous to this discussion. I went back and re-read the passage, as I did again this time. The explosion is described as a very bright light far north of the village you describe--possibly as far north as the far shore of lake Pei.

The way I reason is that if the villagers knew about a temple on the north shore of Lake Pei, then the explosion wouldn't have been described that way. They would have wondered, instead, whether the bright light had happened at the temple. I conclude that the villagers, at least, knew nothing about the temple.

Secondly, I seem to recall a second passage to the effect that the Temple was constructed as a testimony to the victory of the angels on the side of Light over the fallen angels. If that's so, then why was the first Temple constructed, if it existed? Why wouldn't the Temple have been constructed as a replacement for the first one which was destroyed? I couldn't find that passage for this discussion.

~Tonto

The text does not say anything about what speculations or conclusions the villagers made. There is no reason to believe they did not know about the Temple.

I don't recall any passage about the Temple being constructed in honor of the victory. What I recall is mention of the fact that it was built on the site of the original Temple.

The problem I see with this is very little of this makes sense. If we start with what we think we know from Commodore Pei.

Alexandra is gone, Commodore Pei is about to die along with most of the inner circle (definitely Langhorne and probably Bedard and the other key figures). There are survivors including Schuster and Chihiro.

Then all of a sudden we have a war against the "Fallen" led by angels (Chihiro is referenced twice I think as having led forces against the fallen although interestingly Schuster isn't so far as I can recall). Unless Commodore Pei left stockpiles of weapons no war involving an archangel should have lasted five minutes let alone long enough for there to be warrior saints. Why would he have done that? That suggests to me that either the war was used as a tool or its a complete fabrication for some reason.

What the war against the fallen really does is create the exact myth that anyone in Merlin's position would be bound to use because they would virtually have to unless they wished to be human in nearly all ways or considered a demon (or angel although that would seem unlikely given Langhorne's social matrix and the type of person Shan-wei would have selected). A very useful myth indeed for a PICA.

Combine that with a couple of other facts. There were "mortals" who knew something about Merlin's existence. Knew the timescale was long because of the time before the abbot was instructed to open the journal but probably didn't know exactly where the PICA was.

Now I'm going onto what if. If Schuster in the aftermath of the destruction of the temple found one or more of Shan-wei's hidden people or simply their records he would have known roughly about Merlin. The Schuster of the holo-recording is contrite about events and he left a computer saying that the Angels will return in a thousand years. What if the Angel he is referring to is Merlin?

OWL's creation of the second PICA means he certainly could of created a PICA but the blind spot that Merlin demonstrated probably means he wouldn't have thought about it. We know he's placed one faction to watch the church (the Wylsynns) with the capacity to summon something. Merlin virtually ruled out it being a AI and given we know he could have made a permanent PICA why would it not be active. Again a guess but PICAs were designed for high risk activities. I would suspect there is some sort of way of activating them to help humans in emergency situations. That could well be what's under the temple, a way of summoning any active PICA on the planet to the temple.

Too much guesswork in the last bit but it seems the simplest solution. The war of the fallen was simply made up to give Merlin cover when he emerged. Doesn't need anyone to have made PICAs or have massive wide reaching plots and vast amounts of technology handed out to non-angels, simply Schuster doing what he can to pave the way for Merlin and assuming Pei chose 1000 years after the date of creation for Merlin's activation date rather than a couple of decades earlier. In a way the verifier helps the case, of all the groups the most likely to be there would be the Wylsynns - so give them something that can verify that the PICA is telling the truth.

The War of the Fallen was a real event. It left behind a lot of physical evidence, not just legends; plus there's the obvious survival of a handful of surviving Archangels who carried on Langhorne's plan. Now what caused said evidence is open to speculation, but the War itself isn't some fabrication.

The Angelic Wars appears to have been a power struggle among the surviving Angels, rather than a war between Langhorne's survivors and Shan-Wei's survivors.