light ships number and type

lyonheart wrote:The IAN quick fixes were attempts to close the pod gap with the RMN.

While interesting in some degree, they didn't have the fire control links to use them in the proper pod fashion.

I got the impression that the half-pods were to provide extended range capital missiles to older ships that couldn't fire them from internal launchers. The main problem with the concept seemed to be the blockage of sensors, rather than vulnerability.

They were more to address the RMN range advantage than the Pod advantage.

We do not know for certain, but IAN half bolt on pods had standard SDM missiles. IAN missiles had extended stand off attack laser head range in WoH. Hmm, did they also have a 10Mkm missile as well? Not sure that would fall into extended range land, but why not give it to them as well. Personally I do not consider 10Mkm extended range, but others probably would and have used such terminology on this board. We also know that IAN had very large DDM capacitor missiles.

Relax wrote:We do not know for certain, but IAN half bolt on pods had standard SDM missiles. IAN missiles had extended stand off attack laser head range in WoH. Hmm, did they also have a 10Mkm missile as well? Not sure that would fall into extended range land, but why not give it to them as well. Personally I do not consider 10Mkm extended range, but others probably would and have used such terminology on this board. We also know that IAN had very large DDM capacitor missiles.

Thought they had 12 Mkm range missile; or at least their 3 CLs did when they tangled with the RMN CA Ephraim Tudor.

12 million km is a noticeable improvement over the pre-war ~7.3 Mkm missile range; but doesn't match the range of the Mk14 ERM/EDM or Mk32 LERM at more like 15.2 Mkm. (Though I believe the acceleration and range had been creeping up throughout the first war; but as best I recall the endurance didn't get past 180 seconds at 50% power until those ERMs)

But since the Andies would need an implausible 75,000g for 180 seconds to reach the stated range I assume they'd also made a breakthrough in drive endurance. Otherwise either their missiles are over 50% faster than anyone else's shipkillers, or they figured out a way to get 180 second endurance at 80% power instead of the 50% every else is stuck with.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Relax wrote:We do not know for certain, but IAN half bolt on pods had standard SDM missiles. IAN missiles had extended stand off attack laser head range in WoH. Hmm, did they also have a 10Mkm missile as well? Not sure that would fall into extended range land, but why not give it to them as well. Personally I do not consider 10Mkm extended range, but others probably would and have used such terminology on this board. We also know that IAN had very large DDM capacitor missiles.

Thought they had 12 Mkm range missile; or at least their 3 CLs did when they tangled with the RMN CA Ephraim Tudor.

12 million km is a noticeable improvement over the pre-war ~7.3 Mkm missile range; but doesn't match the range of the Mk14 ERM/EDM or Mk32 LERM at more like 15.2 Mkm. (Though I believe the acceleration and range had been creeping up throughout the first war; but as best I recall the endurance didn't get past 180 seconds at 50% power until those ERMs)

But since the Andies would need an implausible 75,000g for 180 seconds to reach the stated range I assume they'd also made a breakthrough in drive endurance. Otherwise either their missiles are over 50% faster than anyone else's shipkillers, or they figured out a way to get 180 second endurance at 80% power instead of the 50% every else is stuck with.

225s @ 48,000g only achieves roughly 12Mkm.

~12Mkm = 1/2*(48,000g*10)*225*225

There is no IAN/RMN/RHN 15.2Mkm missile.

I believe you are remembering the range given with the initial velocity of the two forces in ToF added to the equation.

12Mkm IS the Mk-14 missile.

There is also a shorter legged roughly 10Mkm missile for light units mentioned in SoSag, but if their drive time is only 180s they would need an implausible 60,000g. I believe DW,RFC,Head honcho in chief increased their drive time to achieve this range. Would need a bit over 200s for this range. Maybe this missile mentioned in SoSag is the MK-14. Quite likely now that I think about it.

Ok, finally bed. Been a long day.

Relax wrote:225s @ 48,000g only achieves roughly 12Mkm.

~12Mkm = 1/2*(48,000g*10)*225*225

There is no IAN/RMN/RHN 15.2Mkm missile.

I believe you are remembering the range given with the initial velocity of the two forces in ToF added to the equation.

12Mkm IS the Mk-14 missile.

There is also a shorter legged roughly 10Mkm missile for light units mentioned in SoSag, but if their drive time is only 180s they would need an implausible 60,000g. I believe DW,RFC,Head honcho in chief increased their drive time to achieve this range. Would need a bit over 200s for this range. Maybe this missile mentioned in SoSag is the MK-14. Quite likely now that I think about it.

Ok, finally bed. Been a long day.

I know it's errata and tangential to the rest of this conversation, but the most advanced RHN CA/BC missile as of BoMA only had a range (from at rest) of ~7 Million KM - The same passage states that RMN LACs have the same missile range.

Relax wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Thought they had 12 Mkm range missile; or at least their 3 CLs did when they tangled with the RMN CA Ephraim Tudor.

12 million km is a noticeable improvement over the pre-war ~7.3 Mkm missile range; but doesn't match the range of the Mk14 ERM/EDM or Mk32 LERM at more like 15.2 Mkm. (Though I believe the acceleration and range had been creeping up throughout the first war; but as best I recall the endurance didn't get past 180 seconds at 50% power until those ERMs)

But since the Andies would need an implausible 75,000g for 180 seconds to reach the stated range I assume they'd also made a breakthrough in drive endurance. Otherwise either their missiles are over 50% faster than anyone else's shipkillers, or they figured out a way to get 180 second endurance at 80% power instead of the 50% every else is stuck with.

225s @ 48,000g only achieves roughly 12Mkm.

~12Mkm = 1/2*(48,000g*10)*225*225

There is no IAN/RMN/RHN 15.2Mkm missile.

I believe you are remembering the range given with the initial velocity of the two forces in ToF added to the equation.

12Mkm IS the Mk-14 missile.

There is also a shorter legged roughly 10Mkm missile for light units mentioned in SoSag, but if their drive time is only 180s they would need an implausible 60,000g. I believe DW,RFC,Head honcho in chief increased their drive time to achieve this range. Would need a bit over 200s for this range. Maybe this missile mentioned in SoSag is the MK-14. Quite likely now that I think about it.

Ok, finally bed. Been a long day.

Hmm, I went back and reread the passage containing the fight between the CA Ephraim Tudor and the Andy CLs, and it doesn't really read to me like that 15 million km was just due to the engagement geometry.

Mission of Honor wrote:The three light cruisers had continued to close, and the Manticoran cruiser Ephraim Tudor had opened fire when they approached to within fifteen million kilometers.
The brief engagement which followed had not gone well for the Andermani. Apparently, the best powered attack range for missiles carried by their medium combatants was no more than twelve million kilometers, for they'd closed to that range before launching their first birds.

It's the way the Andi missile range was stated that makes me think this engagements geometry must not have noticably affected the missile's range. The "best powered attack range for missiles" sound pretty absolute to me; you wouldn't refer to it that way if the 12 million km was only possible due to a few million km bonus from the closure rate. But we know that they fired at that best powered range; so to my mind that implies that for whatever reason there was no range bonus in play.

But if that's true then there shouldn't have been a ~3 Mkm range bonus for the RMN missiles either; but they were fired at 15 Mkm, and the Andy CLs clearly had to close before engaging. But admittedly that's trying to work out details from very limited information.


I looked around and couldn't find a stated flight time, or definitively stated powered range, for the Mk14 or Mk36, do you remember where you found the 225 seconds datapoint? (Because obviously your math is right, and I assume those missiles would have the same accel as other recent Mantie missiles; so that's right. So the only real variable left is how much extra duration is build into their drive nodes)

Hey John.

I believe that exact quote was badly worded.

Why? RFC, our crunchy vegetable theif in chief, has taken to stating the maxiumum range with the initial velocity factored in when describing ship engagements.

FOREX: BoMa, he starts off by stating that both the RMN units and RHN units were both within missile range at 98Mkm due to their initial velocity even though they both never actually fired till 64Mkm.

FOREX: Michelle Henke taking out Byng in NT. Shot at max range with 2 drives and initial velocity.

FOREX: SoSag, gives ranges with initial velocity at which the Monican crewed SLN Indafatiguables can engagge(12Mkm) even though only crewed with 7Mkm missiles.

Plenty of other examples. Crandall also comes to mind. SoF taking out the BC's, etc.

In all of these cases RFC, starts by stating the maximum range with the initial velocity first. Just as the WoH quote you used does.

15Mkm is with initial V. 12Mkm is their actual range.

My take on it anyways.

Relax wrote:Hey John.

I believe that exact quote was badly worded.

Why? RFC, our crunchy vegetable theif in chief, has taken to stating the maxiumum range with the initial velocity factored in when describing ship engagements.

FOREX: BoMa, he starts off by stating that both the RMN units and RHN units were both within missile range at 98Mkm due to their initial velocity even though they both never actually fired till 64Mkm.

FOREX: Michelle Henke taking out Byng in NT. Shot at max range with 2 drives and initial velocity.

FOREX: SoSag, gives ranges with initial velocity at which the Monican crewed SLN Indafatiguables can engagge(12Mkm) even though only crewed with 7Mkm missiles.

Plenty of other examples. Crandall also comes to mind. SoF taking out the BC's, etc.

In all of these cases RFC, starts by stating the maximum range with the initial velocity first. Just as the WoH quote you used does.

15Mkm is with initial V. 12Mkm is their actual range.

My take on it anyways.

Could be. I admit we're straining at very small bits of evidence.

Clearly the real problem is that House of Steel didn't include a missile listing with each one's designation, design history, warhead power, acceleration(s) and runtime(s) (preferably with a nice curve where you could see how much extra time, say, 75% power bought you)

Jonathan_S wrote::D

For Reference:

16Mkm = (.5)(48,000g)(~10ms^2/g)t^2

t = ~260s to achieve 16M km

260 is not an integral of 180. AKA 3X drive increase over 60s for 180s. It is a 4.333X multiplier.

240s achieves a range of almost 14Mkm. A 4X increase over 60s sprint drive.

225s achieves a range of 12Mkm. 3.75X increase over 60s sprint drive.

180, 225, 240, 260
<3>, <3.75>, <4>, <4.33>
_0%_, 25%, 33%, 44.3%

The 260, 4.33, 44.3% increase is not a round "boost". Why I single this out is that most folks like nice round numbers just to make life simpler. Yes, even authors who are building a universe. Whole reason everyones' missiles have exactly 60s and 180s drive times. Reality would dictate that there is no way in the universe that this should be a universal constant. Reality would say it should really be oh, 55s, but with a 190s long duration for say the IAN. Now the RMN might have decided to stick with 60s, and 180s, but the RHN, decided to go with much larger warheads, but much longer drive times. Say 45s sprint but, 225s lower accel. But we do not see this in the books. We see exactly 60s and 180s because it is much easier for the reader to grasp what is going on and conversely much better for the author trying to get what he REALLY wants to get across.

Which one makes the most sense? Either 225, 25% increase or 240, and 33% increase in my book. Round numbers or at least "round" fractions of whole numbers.

Ah, pontificating. Pretty sure ToF tells us for sure, but that book is buried deep at the moment and I am feeling really lazy. I would have to walk 10 steps and dig under a couple boxes of books. It is much easier verbosely waxing vociferously on a keyboard.

Relax wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote::D

For Reference:

16Mkm = (.5)(48,000g)(~10ms^2/g)t^2

t = ~260s to achieve 16M km

260 is not an integral of 180. AKA 3X drive increase over 60s for 180s. It is a 4.333X multiplier.

240s achieves a range of almost 14Mkm. A 4X increase over 60s sprint drive.

225s achieves a range of 12Mkm. 3.75X increase over 60s sprint drive.

180, 225, 240, 260
<3>, <3.75>, <4>, <4.33>
_0%_, 25%, 33%, 44.3%

The 260, 4.33, 44.3% increase is not a round "boost". Why I single this out is that most folks like nice round numbers just to make life simpler. Yes, even authors who are building a universe. [snip]

Ah, pontificating. Pretty sure ToF tells us for sure, but that book is buried deep at the moment and I am feeling really lazy. I would have to walk 10 steps and dig under a couple boxes of books. It is much easier verbosely waxing vociferously on a keyboard.

Went back, and found the ToF reference. It's for the Erewhonese version of the Mark 14, and it's a combat flight time, not a stated max range.

"Acceleration rate four-five-one KPS-squared. Time of flight, two-one-seven seconds. Missile Defense is tracking and Halo is active."

So call it 46,000 G at at least 217 seconds; 225 being the next higher "round" multiplier. And 225 seconds at 50% gives a 100% accel time of 75 seconds.

That does happen to match the Mk31 CM and Viper's times. But is also matches the apparent powered time of the Andy's EDM (and there's only a marginal difference in accel; 500g) giving them virtually identical ranges. But now we're back to conflicting with the (possibly badly worded) fight in WoH between the Mantie CA and the 3 Andy CLs where it says the CA was able to open fire at 15 Mkm but the CLs not until 12 Mkm...

This doesn't seem to be lining up; but maybe Rozsak really held his fire waiting for a better fire control lock. (but to get at least 15 Mkm range from rest, and a "round" number you'd need to go all the way up to 50% higher endurance; 90/270 seconds (100%/50%) for 16.4 Mkm; which does seem a bit high)