Aivah - Merlin meeting regarding the deaths of vicars.

I think there have been some discussions regarding this meeting previously, but I decided to start a new thread even so. Immediately after a production meeting Aivah accosted Merlin to report that she was responsible for the deaths of eight or nine vicars. At one point in the discussion Merlin considers what Aivah has said, and in particular what she hasn't said. I combed the passage pretty closely for things Aivah hadn't said, and found only one thing. Merlin had asked a direct question about how she had managed to have eight vicars killed, but her answer was unresponsive, or deflecting. Is that what Merlin meant by what Aivah didn't say? It doesn't appear to me to be remarkable.

I've tried to rack my brain as to other things Aivah didn't say, and almost nothing occurs to me. In fact, only one thing--why is Aivah telling Merlin now? Does this meeting have any relation to the final meeting between Aivah and Merlin in Like a Mighty Army? Had she intuited something about Merlin immediately previously to the meeting, and used this opportunity to gain Merlin's confidence? Well, more confidence? Or did she use it to confirm something she already suspected. Did Merlin say anything during that meeting that would suggest that he could get to Zion incredibly quickly? What happened?

~Tonto

Hi Tonto Silerheels,

Aivah's meeting with Merlin sets up an excuse for further meetings, which the guards may misinterpret, without salacious shower scenes of course, though RFC is certainly testing some posters' composure more than others, which indicates his sense of humor is running normally for him.

If there is a follow-on snippet after the first nugget, of course most of the speculators would have answers which obviously won't happen, because RFC wants his fans to twist in the wind on this one.

Mind you, if getting his jollies at our expense gets him writing more, I'm more than willing.

L

Tonto Silerheels wrote:I think there have been some discussions regarding this meeting previously, but I decided to start a new thread even so. Immediately after a production meeting Aivah accosted Merlin to report that she was responsible for the deaths of eight or nine vicars. At one point in the discussion Merlin considers what Aivah has said, and in particular what she hasn't said. I combed the passage pretty closely for things Aivah hadn't said, and found only one thing. Merlin had asked a direct question about how she had managed to have eight vicars killed, but her answer was unresponsive, or deflecting. Is that what Merlin meant by what Aivah didn't say? It doesn't appear to me to be remarkable.

I've tried to rack my brain as to other things Aivah didn't say, and almost nothing occurs to me. In fact, only one thing--why is Aivah telling Merlin now? Does this meeting have any relation to the final meeting between Aivah and Merlin in Like a Mighty Army? Had she intuited something about Merlin immediately previously to the meeting, and used this opportunity to gain Merlin's confidence? Well, more confidence? Or did she use it to confirm something she already suspected. Did Merlin say anything during that meeting that would suggest that he could get to Zion incredibly quickly? What happened?

~Tonto

I don't have my copy of the book handy, but from what I vaguely recall, I think there are quite a few things that Aivah did not say in that conversation:

Why did Aivah decide to do this?
What is Aivah's goal with these assassinations?
Who are the agents Aivah is using?
How is Aivah communicating with those agents?
Exactly how large and connected is Aivah's organization?
How long had she intended to keep this a secret?
Why did she keep it a secret at first?
Why is Aivah telling him about this now?
Does she think he will keep it a secret as well?
If so, why does she think he will keep it a secret?
What does she think she knows about Merlin?
What plans does she have in store for Merlin?
What other plans has she been keeping secret?
What are Aivah's long-term goals?
Do her goals impact Merlin's goals?

SWM wrote:
I think there are quite a few things that Aivah did not say in that conversation:...

All of those are excellent questions, and just the sort of discussion I wanted to foster.

Why did Aivah decide to do this?

Actually, I think she did answer that question. She said that it was because someone had to. However, that sounds suspiciously like an evasion.

What is Aivah's goal with these assassinations?

The proximate goal is to weaken Clyntahn. All of the men involved were being blackmailed by Clyntahn to support him. There was a stated secondary goal of giving the victims their just reward. Her actual words were that there would be a few additional inhabitants of Hell.

Who are the agents Aivah is using?

That was definitely unstated.

How is Aivah communicating with those agents?

And that, as well.

Exactly how large and connected is Aivah's organization?

And that one.

How long had she intended to keep this a secret?

And that one. Of course secrecy is a necessary ingredient to these types of endeavors, so the most likely answer is, "until it's absolutely necessary to reveal it, and, then, only to those who need to know." So, my question is, "why did Merlin need to know?"

Why is Aivah telling him about this now?

Yes. That was my original question. Well--maybe not my first original question, but it was definitely the next one after that.

Does she think he will keep it a secret as well?

Good question. She knows that Abraim can keep a secret, but it's not clear at this time that she knows that Abraim and Merlin are one-and-the-same. Maybe this is her Midway / AF. Maybe she tells Merlin, and then looks to see whether Abraim or Zhaspahr act on that knowledge. If that's the case, though, the question immediately arises, how can Aivah know that Merlin is Abraim, rather than merely that Merlin told Abraim? Unless, perhaps, Abraim acts on the knowledge immediately? No. That would merely tell here that he can communicate really quickly. Not that he can travel really quickly.

Suppose, however, that she believes that Merlin will reveal it. What harm does it do? Clyntahn already knows that someone is killing vicars, so it won't be news to him. If Charis reveals the information then that would tell Clyntahn something he didn't already know, but how would that benefit him? If the "Unknown" leaflet poster revealed it, then what would it tell Clyntahn? Merely that the unknown poster has close ties to Zion? That's already evident.

If so, why does she think he will keep it a secret?

I don't know. I don't recall her asking him to keep it a secret. Of course, she's the spy mistress, so many of her pronouncements could be assumed to be made under cover of secrecy. Under the rose, as it were.

What does she think she knows about Merlin?

I wonder that as well.

What plans does she have in store for Merlin?

She wants his help ending the corruption in the Church. Whether she has any designs on his body, I'm unable to fathom.

What other plans has she been keeping secret?

She makes a really good cinnamon dessert, and the recipe has been in the family for generations.

What are Aivah's long-term goals?

Not "fortune and glory." She could have had that much easier using a different strategy.

Do her goals impact Merlin's goals?

Ah! Finally a question to which I have the definitive answer. The answer is, "yes."

~Tonto

When I raised the question "Does she think Merlin will keep it a secret as well?", it should have been phrased "Who does she think Merlin will tell?" It is an even more interesting question.

She deliberately did not tell anyone else at the meeting she was just at, but she told Merlin. So she either she didn't want everyone at that meeting to know, or she wanted Merlin to be the one to tell them, or she wanted Merlin to decide which of them to tell. And she didn't tell Merlin which of those cases applied! Apparently she is trusting Merlin's discretion with this information; she expects him to decide what to do with the information. That is very interesting. And leads back to the questions of "Why now?" and "What does she think she knows about Merlin?"

Does she expect him to tell Cayleb? Probably. Other seijin? Maybe (assuming she doesn't know about Merlin's multiple identities), since it could affect their own intelligence gathering. But she might, for some reason having to do with either her plans for Merlin or what she "knows" about Merlin, think Merlin will keep this as a personal confidence between herself and Merlin and tell almost no one. If we knew what Aivah expects Merlin to do with the information, we might have some better guesses to the other questions she didn't answer.

Thoughts?

SWM wrote:When I raised the question "Does she think Merlin will keep it a secret as well?", it should have been phrased "Who does she think Merlin will tell?" It is an even more interesting question.

She deliberately did not tell anyone else at the meeting she was just at, but she told Merlin. So she either she didn't want everyone at that meeting to know, or she wanted Merlin to be the one to tell them, or she wanted Merlin to decide which of them to tell. And she didn't tell Merlin which of those cases applied! Apparently she is trusting Merlin's discretion with this information; she expects him to decide what to do with the information. That is very interesting. And leads back to the questions of "Why now?" and "What does she think she knows about Merlin?"

Does she expect him to tell Cayleb? Probably. Other seijin? Maybe (assuming she doesn't know about Merlin's multiple identities), since it could affect their own intelligence gathering. But she might, for some reason having to do with either her plans for Merlin or what she "knows" about Merlin, think Merlin will keep this as a personal confidence between herself and Merlin and tell almost no one. If we knew what Aivah expects Merlin to do with the information, we might have some better guesses to the other questions she didn't answer.

Thoughts?

It's really too bad Owl used up his critical materials making Nimue's PICA. This is a perfect reason to make a Merlin copy (again from the original Nimue template), so Merlin can deny being Abrahim and have "Abrahim" walk in a few days later to join Merlin and crush any doubt in any one's minds that there isn't a secret force of Seijins?

Really, I'd have the 2nd male PICA normally run his own set of Seijin personas, but the ability to impersonate each other does give an interesting set of options. Like Dalyid Mab appearing in multiple places (and creating considerable havoc) at the same time.

Besides, can you imagine the tales generated from 2 Seijins sparing with each other?

The amusing possibility -- my post on this seems to have vanished or not gone up properly -- is that snippets 1 and 2 are in fact going to be read in order, and what happened after 1 will be a bit later in the book after HWQ.

[quote="SWM"]When I raised the question "Does she think Merlin will keep it a secret as well?", it should have been phrased "Who does she think Merlin will tell?" It is an even more interesting question.

And-- you'll note that apparently this meeting is taking place in a place where Merlin- does not -have remotes to record it.

Theemile wrote:It's really too bad Owl used up his critical materials making Nimue's PICA. This is a perfect reason to make a Merlin copy (again from the original Nimue template), so Merlin can deny being Abrahim and have "Abrahim" walk in a few days later to join Merlin and crush any doubt in any one's minds that there isn't a secret force of Seijins?

Rofl. This is giving me Superboy flashbacks. (Which won't mean much to anyone who didn't read those comics back in the 50s and 60s. Imagine a closet full of robot Superboys.)

In regards to why now: Merlin had reported rumors of vicars being offed and it was my impression that she didn't want Merlin's "seijin network" probing any deeper into who, how and why and perhaps exposing and endangering some of her people.