light ships number and type

MAD-4A wrote:

Crown Loyalist wrote:The DD isn't dying, the class is just getting bigger and bigger to keep it combat viable. Not all recon can be done with recon drones; navies still need small-ish hyper-capable units to scout systems.

Which means it’s hyper footprint is getting bigger & bigger making it less & less useful as a recon platform. Also the FF isn’t gone – I believe the MA used them (all be it with a different drive) rather well in Manticore and Grason. One thing the GA (or SL less effectively) could do, would be to insert FFs with a pod or two each, as well as drones, into a system. Have the FFs tow the pods to pre designated positions under minimum-power. Drop off the pods, move out and use the drones for FC to fire the pods at targets from a safe distance. System defense would race out to where the missiles came from & find only expended pods while the FFs sneak out the other way. with recon info as well.

What frigates are you talking about? There is no text that I can find labeling either the Shark or the Ghost classes as frigates. I don't see any mention of the Alignment using frigates.

Alizon wrote:I also think a traditional DD could probably function as nearly as well as a Roland in other tasks as well. For example a traditional DD with pods towed within it's wedge could also gain the "massive firepower" of a Roland. In fact, if using pods armed with Mk23's, they could actually better it in some ways and at a fraction of the cost.

Sure the extra mass will slow down the traditional DD somewhat but when you consider to Roland's massive 188,000 ton hull, you've got a fairly large acceleration and maneuverability advantage so you can give some of that up and still be better off than a Roland in a number of roles.

Well a DD was classically too small to tractor pods inside its wedge; they had to be towed outside where they significantly reduce acceleration and significantly increase wedge signature (screw up trying to hide a low power wedge)

Now with self-tractoring pods you should be able to limpet them to the hull (at least for as long as the power and tractors last), which would put them inside the wedge and avoid that issue. But that has it's own tradeoffs; tractoring pods to the hull means they're blocking sensors, communications, and/or weapons. You'd need to be careful with how you positioned them to keep the RD linked unblocked - otherwise bringing the pods reduces your scouting effectiveness

SWM wrote:What frigates are you talking about? There is no text that I can find labeling either the Shark or the Ghost classes as frigates. I don't see any mention of the Alignment using frigates.

The Ghosts are described as Frigate sized, though as spider drive ships they are sufficiently different in nature that I wouldn't describe them as Frigates.

Grashtel wrote:

SWM wrote:What frigates are you talking about? There is no text that I can find labeling either the Shark or the Ghost classes as frigates. I don't see any mention of the Alignment using frigates.

The Ghosts are described as Frigate sized, though as spider drive ships they are sufficiently different in nature that I wouldn't describe them as Frigates.

Is the Ghost class even armed? The first sentence of the page for the class on the Honorverse wiki refers to it as an armed stealth scout ship. However further down the page states that they have no offensive weapons, and limited offensive weapons, along with a flag bridge though the last part makes little sense to me. A flagship with little or no offensive power I could see but I would want it to have strong defenses and the ability to take some hits and remain operational.

Still assuming that Ghosts are warships than by your logic the presence of the spider drive makes it a new type rather than being a frigate. That means every spider drive equipped warship model is a new type of ship. Why do you think coming up with new names for them rather than sticking with the ones traditionally used in the setting would be beneficial?

Ghosts are not a frigate. They have no offensive capability at all. They have a laughable defensive suite. Ghosts are a very large manned Reconnaissance Drone.

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When a Roland sized ship can routinely haul around 15 pods without covering its sensors giving it a total of either 120Mk-23 + 15AcM or 150 MK-23 and only internally holds 220 MK-16G. ~40% of its offensive capability can easily take on traditional Capital ships and the other 60% effectively can? The viability of any light unit below BCL is in serious question.

Now lets play with the upcoming, "we the reader think we have inside information card".

New Mk-23G(assumption it is in the pipeline) while maybe no more dangerous to DD light units, can easily take on capital ship armor. Here I am assuming that a standard MK-23 will blow completely through a DD platform. MK-23G will simply blow a slightly larger hole through the same ship and if Its squadron mates were oh so helpful to all align perfectly for said MK-23G, it would blow through them as well(Ok, slight exaggeration, though not by much). Even capital 9-10M ton ships will need to dedicate far more mass and energy to tougher sidewalls with the advent of the Mk-23G.

Thankfully there seems no limit to the strength of sidewalls. Sidewall generation increased capacity(redundancy) and strength are the only redeeming factor in favor of any ship below BCL.

Of interest. Just playing with tonnages, not unit cost. [obviously 50 Roland >> more expensive than 1 SDP]

1 10M ton SDP = 50 200,000 ton Rolands
1500 people SDP verses 3000 50 Roland
SDP has Roughly 200 CM tubes
50 Rolands have 1000 CM tubes
50 Rolands control 36x50 or 1730 missiles
1 SDP controls? >>4000 per AoV, but far fewer as of AAC. Then multiply the AAC guesstimate by 8 for Apollo bringing total back to around 4000.
Rolands can carry 15 pods SDP 1000 pods 750:1000
DD No FTL C&C loop: SDP FTL C&C loop

50 Rolands will die via 50-100 hits and have not Keyhole so missile lock on their ships are, guesstimate 200% greater than ship with Keyhole.
1SDP can absorb about 200+ hits.

So, offensively, 50 Rolands are hopelessly outclassed.
Defensively they are far superior in regards to CM only, but in regards to durability are 200%-800% less effective.
Of course CM's are provided by LAC's, not the SDP's in question.

For kicks and giggles lets go with 50 Roland verses 1 CLAC RHN style gives 200 Katana LAC's. Lets look at the only advantage the Rolands had: CM's.

200(5) = 1000CM
50(20) = 1000CM

So, equal tonnage of CLAC/LAC : DD Roland equates roughly to same number of CM's present as well. On top of this LAC's are harder targets to hit.

PDLC(assuming roughly =, yea I know KatLAC has SD PDLC)
DD : LAC
50(9)=450 < 200(3)=600

Bottom Line Roland, even with Uber Capital missiles are a losing proposition to a proper waller.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Alizon wrote:I also think a traditional DD could probably function as nearly as well as a Roland in other tasks as well. For example a traditional DD with pods towed within it's wedge could also gain the "massive firepower" of a Roland. In fact, if using pods armed with Mk23's, they could actually better it in some ways and at a fraction of the cost.

Now with self-tractoring pods you should be able to limpet them to the hull (at least for as long as the power and tractors last), which would put them inside the wedge and avoid that issue. But that has it's own tradeoffs; tractoring pods to the hull means they're blocking sensors, communications, and/or weapons. You'd need to be careful with how you positioned them to keep the RD linked unblocked - otherwise bringing the pods reduces your scouting effectiveness

Number of pods able to tag along behind the wedge seems only limited by the power a ship has. This aspect seems a bit confusing though.

We have Roland able to run around with 15 pods without covering sensors. Then we have "old style tactics revert" in SoSag where old 100,000 ton Culverin class DD's hauled, 3 pods as I recall. Will go read and EDIT: SoSag, due to the addition of internal tractor, even DD's hauled 10 pods.

Hmm can anyone pull where I have a memory for only 3 pods for old DD sized ship? Has to be an old ref before internal tractor. Old fart syndrome and the fumes are getting rather thick in my head?

I seem to have missed it in my search of the text. Where does it say that the Ghost-class is the size of a frigate?

Storm from the Shadows.

Duckk wrote:Storm from the Shadows.

Found it. Thanks!

A frigates a frigate regardless of the type of drive it has. While DDs have longer sustained combat endurance a scout trying to escape pursuit isn't interested in sustained combat only getting away. An FF with a couple of pods tractored behind it can give a huge (for tin cans anyway) blast to a pursuing DD which could give it the needed time to escape (especially if it "dropped" the pods in its wake and ambushed the DD at point-blank). Anyway, one thing ya'll fail to realize, as DDs and other ships have generally increased in size, so would the FF, a modern GA style FF would be about the size of a BaskSta era fleet DD. So, if you like to look at it that way, then I'm not proposing production of teeny-tiny "FFs" but old size small "DDs" labeled "FFs" as that's their function. Highly specialized hyper capable small recon or point defense platforms.