Would Safeholdians really recognize electricity?

Just a thought to chew on while we wait for snippets:

the Writ describes electricity as lightning, but except for fluorescent and neon type lighting, we rarely use electricity in the form of a gap discharge in a gas. Instead, it is contained in conductors, and not visible at all.

Consider, for example, early experiments with dissimilar metals - how would someone with at good Safehold education possibly realize that the current from dissimilar metals - which makes a frog's leg twitch is the same thing as lightning?

So would the average Safehold resident, or Intendant, recognize (the effects of) electricity if he or she saw it?

I think not - at least when in the form of galvanic piles.... unless the Writ goes to a lot of trouble to explain different methods that "lighting" can be generated. In which case we have the similar avenue that has already been followed to get primer caps. "Hmmm, the Writ says don't do this. I wonder what happens when I do?"

Likely the Writ describes things that cause a spark or a shock or attractions between light objects (like feathers) to amber-like materials as "electricity".

IIRC what David Weber stated was that the Writ links electricity (as described above) with Langhorne's lightning.

Also, I think David Weber has also stated that Safehold has animals similar to the electric eel.

David Weber has stated that the Inquisition has caught people "playing around with electricity" who received harsh punishment.

Because of the concern about how the orbital platforms would react to generation of electricity (and how the people of Charis would react), IMO the Inner Circle will be discouraging anybody from "playing around with electricity".

Oh, electricity (if not by name) was known in ancient times.

As a starting point of research, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity#History

Hildum wrote:Just a thought to chew on while we wait for snippets:

the Writ describes electricity as lightning, but except for fluorescent and neon type lighting, we rarely use electricity in the form of a gap discharge in a gas. Instead, it is contained in conductors, and not visible at all.

Consider, for example, early experiments with dissimilar metals - how would someone with at good Safehold education possibly realize that the current from dissimilar metals - which makes a frog's leg twitch is the same thing as lightning?

So would the average Safehold resident, or Intendant, recognize (the effects of) electricity if he or she saw it?

I think not - at least when in the form of galvanic piles.... unless the Writ goes to a lot of trouble to explain different methods that "lighting" can be generated. In which case we have the similar avenue that has already been followed to get primer caps. "Hmmm, the Writ says don't do this. I wonder what happens when I do?"

Hildum wrote:the Writ describes electricity as lightning, but except for fluorescent and neon type lighting, we rarely use electricity in the form of a gap discharge in a gas. Instead, it is contained in conductors, and not visible at all.

The first time some kid sticks a fork in an outlet or someone grabs a live circuit, the connection between "lightning" and "electricity" will be obvious.

The connection will be especially obvious at the power levels smelting aluminum and other industrial processes require.

On a related note, fur and amber generate static electricity which was discovered in the 6th century BC in real life. Fur and a glass rod work as well to make static electricity. I wonder how the writ handles static electricity? Maybe like lightning in storms being a reminder of the Rakurai? Something people can find out for themselves with the expectation that the little zap from static electricity is a taste of the Archangels wrath? Wouldn't someone with a hankering for power want to see how far they could go with it?

I have long been in favor of Merlin setting up a little catenary railroad powered by electricity to complement and extend his steam domain on his test island. It would allow the inner circle to see a working model of a system powered by electricity. This is necessary because industrial development will come to a halt if they do not find a way to electrify their industrial processes. There is only so much one can do with compressed air and water and pulley drives.

No one aside from the inner circle needs to know exactly what drives any particular piece of machinery. One can easily hide an electromechanical transmission on a ship so that anyone taking a tour of the ship will have no idea what really drives the ship unless the workings are explained to them in detail. The first time I saw one of those on a C3B someone had to tell me how it worked. I only knew what it was because it said so on the nameplate.

"How far they could go with it?"

From what David Weber said, "up to when the Inquistition finds out about it".

Apparently, the Inquisition has in the past on Safehold discovered such idiots and the idiots didn't survive the discovery very long.

Kizarvexis wrote:On a related note, fur and amber generate static electricity which was discovered in the 6th century BC in real life. Fur and a glass rod work as well to make static electricity. I wonder how the writ handles static electricity? Maybe like lightning in storms being a reminder of the Rakurai? Something people can find out for themselves with the expectation that the little zap from static electricity is a taste of the Archangels wrath? Wouldn't someone with a hankering for power want to see how far they could go with it?

Dutch, see "Why can't Charis have electricity? (Asked Sun May 12, 2013)" here: http://www.davidweber.net/faqs/index/series:6

Merlin and the Inner Circle suspect that the orbital platforms would strongly react to electric generation.

Dutch46 wrote:I have long been in favor of Merlin setting up a little catenary railroad powered by electricity to complement and extend his steam domain on his test island. It would allow the inner circle to see a working model of a system powered by electricity. This is necessary because industrial development will come to a halt if they do not find a way to electrify their industrial processes. There is only so much one can do with compressed air and water and pulley drives.

No one aside from the inner circle needs to know exactly what drives any particular piece of machinery. One can easily hide an electromechanical transmission on a ship so that anyone taking a tour of the ship will have no idea what really drives the ship unless the workings are explained to them in detail. The first time I saw one of those on a C3B someone had to tell me how it worked. I only knew what it was because it said so on the nameplate.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Dutch, see "Why can't Charis have electricity? (Asked Sun May 12, 2013)" here: http://www.davidweber.net/faqs/index/series:6

Merlin and the Inner Circle suspect that the orbital platforms would strongly react to electric generation.

Dutch46 wrote:I have long been in favor of Merlin setting up a little catenary railroad powered by electricity to complement and extend his steam domain on his test island. It would allow the inner circle to see a working model of a system powered by electricity. This is necessary because industrial development will come to a halt if they do not find a way to electrify their industrial processes. There is only so much one can do with compressed air and water and pulley drives.

No one aside from the inner circle needs to know exactly what drives any particular piece of machinery. One can easily hide an electromechanical transmission on a ship so that anyone taking a tour of the ship will have no idea what really drives the ship unless the workings are explained to them in detail. The first time I saw one of those on a C3B someone had to tell me how it worked. I only knew what it was because it said so on the nameplate.

There is no way for the orbital sensors, no matter how sensitive, to see the miniscule amount of emissions that would result from a scale model installation. Further, I would make the installation incrementally larger over time in order to test at what point the orbital sensors take notice. One small island being pounded to dust is not going to be a big loss. At some point, Charis will have to test the waters, they might as well get an early start on it.

My personal suspicion is that the bombardment system is a manually controlled operation and that nothing will happen. Of course, since this is RFC's world and he runs it to maximize the suspense of his readers, I may well, once again, be wrong.

Dutch46 wrote:There is no way for the orbital sensors, no matter how sensitive, to see the miniscule amount of emissions that would result from a scale model installation. Further, I would make the installation incrementally larger over time in order to test at what point the orbital sensors take notice. One small island being pounded to dust is not going to be a big loss. At some point, Charis will have to test the waters, they might as well get an early start on it.

It doesn't matter whether you are correct or not that the Rakurai could not detect it. Merlin cannot and will not risk it under any circumstances. The consequences of being wrong are too great. He will wait until he can deal with the Rakurai before introducing any kind of electricity to Safehold, even small demonstration sets.

Merlin decided that steam was almost certainly safe, and the benefits were great enough that he was willing to risk the small possibility of error. But he is quite certain (due to the explicit statements in the Prohibitions) that electricity would be a trigger, so he will not risk even small-scale tests that would probably be undetectable. That is a gamble with potentially the entire future of the human race at risk.

Dutch46 wrote:There is no way for the orbital sensors, no matter how sensitive, to see the miniscule amount of emissions that would result from a scale model installation.

How can you be sure of what fictional tech in a fictional universe can do?

Merlin was certain that his test of the indicators of steam technology would be detectible. I'd expect him to be as meticulous with testing for other indicators of progress.

Dutch46 wrote:Further, I would make the installation incrementally larger over time in order to test at what point the orbital sensors take notice.

Why risk "waking up" the OBS? Perhaps the OBS is programmed not to take action until a certain level of electromagnetic emissions is reached and then take out every indication of progress above what was available at Creation -- iow, "Nuke 'em back to the stone age" as a first response.

Dutch46 wrote:One small island being pounded to dust is not going to be a big loss. At some point, Charis will have to test the waters, they might as well get an early start on it.

Why does Charis need to flirt with the OBS before the Go4 is defeated? Once that is accomplished and the Temple basement and OBS are disarmed, then Progress can proceed without worry. Until then, staying far out of the OBS's notice parameters seems wise.