Expended missiles

namelessfly wrote:Rechecking my math.

KE = 1/2mV^2

KE = 1/2 x 1eex5Kg x (1eex8)^2

KE = 1/2 x 1eex21 = 5eex20 Joules

Yes. I did FUBAR.

KE of a 100 ton missile is equivalent to only 5eex20 Joule / 4.2eex15 Joule / Megaton

Or only 100,000 Megatons.

I was off by a factor of 5.

My FUBAR.

Obviously; the consequences of a missile impact with an inhabited planet, moon, space station or whatever would be inconsequential. Just let them roam free until they exit the system.

namelessfly wrote:A 100+ ton missile moving at only 1/3 Cee has a Kinetic energy of:

1/2 x 5ee5 Kg x (1eex8m/s)^2 = 2.5eex21 Joules or the equivalent of a 1/2 million, Megaton bomb. Only one missile impacting an inhabited planet is a potential dinosaur killer (aka, A Mass Extinction Event).

I would imagine that every missile must have at least some type of demolition mechanis such as a small, low yield nuke or a shut down of the plasma containment in the fusion bottle on more modern missiles or to short out the capacitor rings to release the remaining stored energy.

Another question is what happens to expended missile pods?

In HAE, we see the Wayfarer using pinnaces to retrieve missile pods so that they can be reloaded, recharged and reused. Obviously; most later battles are too dynamic to enable retrieval, but is that a contingency for the victor after a battle. (Note, missile pods which must mass somewhere around 1,000 tons can be a hazard if they hit something)

Duckk wrote:

First off, the EE is not relevant unless someone is willing and able to enforce it.

Weber has provided repeated examples of situations where the EE was not enforced.

A classic example were the early Masada vs Grayson wars where the Masadans did launch nukes and kinetic strikes on Grayson. Manticore effectively enforced the EE many decades later only after Honor Harington defeated THUNDER OF GOD. It is possible that the SL did nothing because they simply had not heard about those battles. Ditto for the RMN. However; the fact that the RMN's enforcement of the EE did not win them a propaganda victory in the SL undermines the SL's moral authority.

Which is exactly what happened. No one knew about the Edict violation until well after the fact. The Graysons chose to leave Masada alone when they were in a position to neuter them, so any failure to follow up on it is on them.

The SL's legalistic rationalization that the massive civilian casualties that resulted from the
Oyster Bay attacks were not EE violations because they were neither intentional, wanton or targeted at the space station undermines the validity of the EE. I am certain that systems such as Yilden who are space based because they have no planet are not protected by the EE are delighted to learn that the SL has declared open season on them. This might explain their hostility.

The SL's eagerness to exploit the Oyster Bay attacks by sending Fillarta with 400+ SDs to attack
Manticore certainly demonstrates a callous disregard to the principle that genocidal attacks are forbidden.

Completely irrelevant. As David has pointed out in past infodumps, Manticore doesn't consider Oyster Bay an Edict violation either. They're pissed off about the sneak attack, but no one thinks it violates any of the provisions of the Edict either. You're allowed to destroy military facilities, and if civilians get caught in the crossfire because they were put there, that's on the defenders, not the attackers.

The seemingly routine use of KE strikes by the OFS and SLN at Mobius certainly suggests that the SL's high sounding rhetoric about the EE notwithstanding, the SLN is THE major violator of the EE.

First of all, as described in multiple places, you're allowed to do things to your own system if in response to armed rebellion. See the Leveler Uprising. So the SLN has some legal cover there.

Second of all, even if you reject that interpretation, that gets right back to the whole point I am making: there are serious repercussions for violating the rules and laws of war. You can bet the RMN is going to use the events at Mobius to help their overall strategy.

Actions have consequences. Skimper's notion of just lobbing missiles willy nilly at planets completely ignores the very predictable consequences, which is exactly why people don't attack planets with shipboard weapons.

Since the EE is the one thing that the SL members claim to agree on, the fact that the SLN has been busy violating rather than enforcing the EE is going to seriously undermine SL morale.

It is sort of like how the recent incident where a Clackamas County Oregon Sheriff's deputy walked into a crowded bar to fatally shoot his wife and two other women before committing suicide with his service weapon undermines that law enforcement agency's credibility.

Now that Adm Crandal and Adm Fillarta have had their butts kicked, the SLN no longer has the aura of invincibility that would make them a credible guarantor of the EE.

It is open season on planets until the GA establishes itself as the new enforcer of a no doubt revised EE that does not have so many loopholes.

Which, again, is why I said there were serious consequences behind violating the Edict. I never said the consequences were solely about the SLN showing up to enforce its provisions. The point was that violating the Edict is enough of an atypical war crime that it has ramifications in the realms of politics and grand strategy. And those ramifications are tattooed on the backs of every naval officers' eyelids, so they're fully aware that they don't want to fire on planets just for giggles (assuming they were sufficiently deranged to even consider it in the first place).

namelessfly wrote:While your legalistic reasoning might seem valid, I can introduce you to someTreecats that would vehementantly disagree with the notion that genocidal response is nor justified.

Fortunately for the Malign, Treecats can't fly fleets of SD(P)s. However; Admiral Honor Harrington cammands Eigth Fleet. Admiral Whitehaven has been somewhat shocked to finally see his second wife for what she really is, a cold blooded killing machine not unlike her father. We have seen Harrington become so angry about a few score of her squadron's crew get murdered and raped that she had to be physically restrained. You think that she is going to be any less bizerk when she confronts the people who exterminated the Harrington clan?

I expect to see billions of people die.

Duckk wrote:Why is it that people think killing a few billion people is something trivial? That there won't be extremely serious repercussions? Every time the Edict comes up, there's always a sizable minority who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to go ahead and more or less utterly destroy a planet. The persistence of this belief makes me think that said minority doesn't understand how the universe as written works.

KNick wrote:

namelessfly wrote:While your legalistic reasoning might seem valid, I can introduce you to someTreecats that would vehementantly disagree with the notion that genocidal response is nor justified.

Fortunately for the Malign, Treecats can't fly fleets of SD(P)s. However; Admiral Honor Harrington cammands Eigth Fleet. Admiral Whitehaven has been somewhat shocked to finally see his second wife for what she really is, a cold blooded killing machine not unlike her father. We have seen Harrington become so angry about a few score of her squadron's crew get murdered and raped that she had to be physically restrained. You think that she is going to be any less bizerk when she confronts the people who exterminated the Harrington clan?

I expect to see billions of people die.

So do I. But Honor has grown up somewhat. I expect the "billions" to die on the end of a rope or in front of a firing squad after a "fair and impartial" trial. Honor knows that the average man on the street had nothing to do with what happened. She will not go after them. But the leaders, the decision makers, the order givers will not just think, they will know all the way to the marrow of their bones that the Hounds of Hell are following their trail, searching for them.

KNick wrote:

namelessfly wrote:While your legalistic reasoning might seem valid, I can introduce you to someTreecats that would vehementantly disagree with the notion that genocidal response is nor justified.

Fortunately for the Malign, Treecats can't fly fleets of SD(P)s. However; Admiral Honor Harrington cammands Eigth Fleet. Admiral Whitehaven has been somewhat shocked to finally see his second wife for what she really is, a cold blooded killing machine not unlike her father. We have seen Harrington become so angry about a few score of her squadron's crew get murdered and raped that she had to be physically restrained. You think that she is going to be any less bizerk when she confronts the people who exterminated the Harrington clan?

I expect to see billions of people die.

So do I. But Honor has grown up somewhat. I expect the "billions" to die on the end of a rope or in front of a firing squad after a "fair and impartial" trial. Honor knows that the average man on the street had nothing to do with what happened. She will not go after them. But the leaders, the decision makers, the order givers will not just think, they will know all the way to the marrow of their bones that the Hounds of Hell are following their trail, searching for them.

Scuffles wrote:I sometimes wonder if I'm reading the same books as some of you guys.

Are you seriously suggesting that the same person who guilt tripped herself about killing military personnel who were actively shooting at her at the time is going to suddenly turn around and commit cold blooded genocide against the non-military citizens of Darius just for having the temerity to live on a world that's owned by the bad guys?

Seriously?

Also, where did the ridiculous idea that everybody on Darius including the (slightly better treated) genetic slaves is going to be 100% backing the alignment's plan for galactic domination? It's a secret plan. None of those people are going to have any idea that they're working for someone who's bent on galactic domination.

It wouldn't be much of a secret plan if they told billions of people about it.

Also, why do so many people have this thing about Edict violations going on? Even the ultimate bad guys - who happen to be in possession of top class stealth technology that nobody in the galaxy can detect - have only considered it in the case of Torch, where the inhabitants aren't people, they're escaped property. And even then they only tried it by proxy.

Genocidal attacks aren't really in anyone's playbook, not even the worst of the worst. Why do we really think that the good guys are suddenly going to go there?

Scuffles wrote:I sometimes wonder if I'm reading the same books as some of you guys.

Are you seriously suggesting that the same person who guilt tripped herself about killing military personnel who were actively shooting at her at the time is going to suddenly turn around and commit cold blooded genocide against the non-military citizens of Darius just for having the temerity to live on a world that's owned by the bad guys?

Seriously?

Also, where did the ridiculous idea that everybody on Darius including the (slightly better treated) genetic slaves is going to be 100% backing the alignment's plan for galactic domination? It's a secret plan. None of those people are going to have any idea that they're working for someone who's bent on galactic domination.

It wouldn't be much of a secret plan if they told billions of people about it.

Also, why do so many people have this thing about Edict violations going on? Even the ultimate bad guys - who happen to be in possession of top class stealth technology that nobody in the galaxy can detect - have only considered it in the case of Torch, where the inhabitants aren't people, they're escaped property. And even then they only tried it by proxy.

Genocidal attacks aren't really in anyone's playbook, not even the worst of the worst. Why do we really think that the good guys are suddenly going to go there?