(Spoiler warning) Does everyone have Clyntahn figured wrong?

Clyntahn has already claimed Charis has violated the proscriptions. What more can he do? Loudly proclaim this time he really means it?

Perhaps he has something like the Stone of Schueler that can access the OBS or awaken the Temple Sleepers early. We shall see.

My gut tells me the issues relating to the G4 will be resolved separately from the OBS and/or Sleepers. Well my gut and an RFC post a while back.

AncientMariner wrote:

PeterZ wrote:His will is God's will. That's why since his agents have found the plans for the steam engine, he is confident that he can apply it safely in accordance with God's will. Brother Fultyn's innovations did not originate from Clyntahn and so might not be used in a manner pleasing to God.

Hi, long time lurker emerging from the shadows... the light is blinding!

So my initial reaction when Rayno gave Clyntahn the information about the steam engine was "oh no! Now the Church is going to copy it!", but.... what if that's too obvious? What if Clyntahn sees this as proof positive that Charis has finally clearly and obviously violated the Proscriptions? Maybe his interest is not in copying, but something more sinister? I have no idea what, but it's fun to speculate!

Hi PeterZ,

From the textev, Clyntahn is quite excited about the prospect, but the best people to attempt to build one will be the very same who've been most in danger from the inquisition, so he may give them essentially life exemptions in order get his precious steam engines built quickly.

I believe Clyntahn sees the steam engine as a means to match Howsmyn's reputed production superiority, and that by building lots of them the Go4/him can overwhelm Charis's war production and thus win the war.

So he may approve steam engines the same way Paityr Wylsynn did, or more probably something far broader that inadvertently for Clyntahn, opens the door for many more engines etc, that pleases the inner circle no end.

Unfortunately for him the nontechnical references don't detail how to build a steam engine, especially safely, requiring considerable research that will take years the Go4 doesn't have [even if the Go4's rate is ten times faster than Terra's from Savery to Watt], NTM because Clyntahn will have bought the pig in a poke without getting any results, the CoGA will be stuck with another example of expediency trumping the Holy Writ.

The reaction from conservatives, particularly Harchong could damage his base of support at a critical time if Rhobair's coup strikes at the same time.

L


[quote="PeterZ"]Clyntahn has already claimed Charis has violated the proscriptions. What more can he do? Loudly proclaim this time he really means it?

Perhaps he has something like the Stone of Schueler that can access the OBS or awaken the Temple Sleepers early. We shall see.

My gut tells me the issues relating to the G4 will be resolved separately from the OBS and/or Sleepers. Well my gut and an RFC post a while back.

[quote="AncientMariner"]**quote="PeterZ"**
His will [b][u][i]is[/i][/u][/b] God's will. That's why since his agents have found the plans for the steam engine, he is confident that he can apply it safely in accordance with God's will. Brother Fultyn's innovations did not originate from Clyntahn and so might not be used in a manner pleasing to God.**/quote**

Hi, long time lurker emerging from the shadows... the light is blinding!

So my initial reaction when Rayno gave Clyntahn the information about the steam engine was "oh no! Now the Church is going to copy it!", but.... what if that's too obvious? What if Clyntahn sees this as proof positive that Charis has finally clearly and obviously violated the Proscriptions? Maybe his interest is not in copying, but something more sinister? I have no idea what, but it's fun to speculate![/quote][/quote]

THe thing is, cannon and guns have been used for centuries, so the church atleast has basic experience with them. Steam engines are going to be whole new discipline. THEy also have the issue that their construction methods and materials are so much lesser than charis, that the engines could seriuosly injur and kill many.
you need trained engineers and craftsmen to build, work and maintain them. and it is not only the engines they need, but the infrastructure, industry and things like production lines. it will simply make an expensive over developed system for manufacturing.
It is another way to destro the church by making them break the prescriptions.

The majority of the problems the Church has in producing things are efficiency and quality-control. IRL, the Russians had (and to a degree, still have) the same problems, which is why russian equipment tends to be so much bulkier than the equivalent western equipment. It isn't because they are intentionally designing it to be tougher, it is because if they don't build it that way, their quality control issues would mean that a very large fraction of their stuff would break far too quickly.

The CoGA is in the same basic position as the Russians in the Cold War. Their tech is inferior and needs to be bulkier to avoid exploding at the wrong times, their manpower is under-trained and ill-educated and their leadership is being lied to about what is going on and thus needs to spy on their own people to discover how they really stand (Harchong's army being a case in point).

Good heavens, Clyntahn is Joseph Stalin

Hi, Drak,
I don't know where you got "electricity" out of my post because I was actually thinking about types of emissions, speeds of vehicles, psi of devices used, etc. Nor did I mean to imply that anyone in the Church knew specifically about the OBS, just that exceeding certain limits would set off the 'Rakurai or some form of retribution.

DrakBibliophile wrote:From what David Weber said, using electricity (for most anybody on Safehold) would be "stealing from Langhorne".

Clyntahn doesn't need to know about the OBS and what would set it off.

ManyMyths wrote:The Office of the Grand Inquisitor may have more detailed information about what will set off the OBS and Clynton doesn't strike me as a 'martyr' type. This may be partially why he's vetting what info he's passing on. The other reason being he's a control freak of the first order.(snip)

Well, I was going from what David Weber had said about what the Inner Circle suspected would trigger the Rakurai (ie generation of electricity).

As for the Grand Inquisitor having special knowledge about what would set off the Rakurai, I doubt it but IIRC there's no text evidence for or against.

ManyMyths wrote:Hi, Drak,
I don't know where you got "electricity" out of my post because I was actually thinking about types of emissions, speeds of vehicles, psi of devices used, etc. Nor did I mean to imply that anyone in the Church knew specifically about the OBS, just that exceeding certain limits would set off the 'Rakurai or some form of retribution.

DrakBibliophile wrote:From what David Weber said, using electricity (for most anybody on Safehold) would be "stealing from Langhorne".

Clyntahn doesn't need to know about the OBS and what would set it off.

[quote="PeterZ"]Clyntahn has already claimed Charis has violated the proscriptions. What more can he do? Loudly proclaim this time he really means it?[quote]

I think you're right. I guess what's been gnawing at me is how far from the Proscriptions steam engines are likely to be, at least in the public's perception. I don't know that he can embrace that technology without serious repercussions, and he's not stupid. I can see this being used in a propaganda way, to bolster support for the failing Jihad. Maybe it can be used to increase enlistment, or further squash opposition? I don't know.

However, public perception of steam engines will be a big issue. For example, the story in my family is that my great-great-grandfather refused to ride a train in his life, because he believed it was powered by the devil. That's in a world without proscriptions telling you explicitly that anything other than muscle, wind or water is from the devil! How is the average Safeholdian going to react?

AncientMariner wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Clyntahn has already claimed Charis has violated the proscriptions. What more can he do? Loudly proclaim this time he really means it?

I think you're right. I guess what's been gnawing at me is how far from the Proscriptions steam engines are likely to be, at least in the public's perception. I don't know that he can embrace that technology without serious repercussions, and he's not stupid. I can see this being used in a propaganda way, to bolster support for the failing Jihad. Maybe it can be used to increase enlistment, or further squash opposition? I don't know.

However, public perception of steam engines will be a big issue. For example, the story in my family is that my great-great-grandfather refused to ride a train in his life, because he believed it was powered by the devil. That's in a world without proscriptions telling you explicitly that anything other than muscle, wind or water is from the devil! How is the average Safeholdian going to react?

Therein lies the beauty of Father Paytr's emotional appeal. His argument isn't predicated on legalistic interpretation of the Writ, but of the plain and simple benefits of steam over the centuries. Rationalizing the benefits of archangel approved blessings like steam is a bit different than trying to fit truly novel technology and processes into an existing paradigm of the Proscriptions.

Applying an inherently thing in new and more beneficial ways is a much easier argument than saying an unknown things is basically good and will provide benefits. Clyntahn can either accept Father Paytr's arguments or try to argue that steam isn't inherently good. One seems easier than the other as well as providing more benefits to the thieving SOB and his jihad.

We know in the short term he will approve anything, so some how inspire those breaking the rules for him to experiment with a process or a material enough to get some approval. Once they approve it, leak to the college that this new approved knowledge will be studied, and Merlin quirky leaks how to advance it. Use the Group of 4 to get access to stuff blocked by the proscroptions.
Merlin can create the paperwork that prices the process has been approved, say this are stolen inquisition papers.

Merlin could fabricate a folder of notes, that a unknown temple loyalist will send to the inquisition. They are ideas, suspitions, theories and notes that have been thrown away by various academia. Nothing that can be used to punish the writer, but enough to help inspire some others in creation.

SYED wrote:We know in the short term he will approve anything, so some how inspire those breaking the rules for him to experiment with a process or a material enough to get some approval. ...

"He" being Pater Wylsynn or Clyntahn?

I think their pattern of approval will be very different. Wylsynn will approve whatever he can justify with the expectation that the approval will be permanent and widespread.

Clyntahn, otoh, will approve anything at all that shows any promise of equaling or surpassing waht Pater Wylsynn has approved for Charis. He will however, do so reluctantly with the expectation of revoking approval and executing the innovators as soon as Charis is defeated.

The other difference is that because Wyslsynn expects his approvals to be permanent, he is careful to prepare the ground carefully so that his approvals won't be resisted; Clyntahn expects his word to be enough. Since Clyntahn expects to revoke approvals he really doesn't care if the man-on-the-street accepts or rejects the technology. He will attempt to hold everything as a "Church Secret" "justified" as a "wartime expedient" where he justifies things at all.